New, very basic cars

Factual Questions
41

You may or may not be an exceptional transmission driver but you have the wrong impression when it comes to newer cars. You attitude is a holdover from when automatic transmissions were new and both not as reliable and not as ‘smart’ as they are today. With manual transmissions, you are generally going to have clutch problems at about the 100K mileage mark unless you are exceptionally careful. A bad manual transmission driver can destroy a clutch in less than 20K miles.

A clutch replacement is going to cost anywhere from a few hundred dollars to well over a thousand dollars. OTOH, automatic transmissions on reputable models can easily go well over the 200K mileage point today with no issues. Some other part of the vehicle usually fails or someone totals the car before the transmission becomes an issue. More likely, the owner just gets tired of it and buys a new car before transmission issues are a factor.

Furthermore, there is a general fallacy among some drivers especially European ones that manual transmissions are superior because of gas mileage, performance or general driver control. That was true at one point but it isn’t nearly as true today and many of those considerations have been reversed because of electronic technology. You may not like it but the computer can always beat you when it comes to optimized shift points, traction control, and braking strategy today. This isn’t 1985 any more.

To prove a point, I sometimes like to challenge people in old muscle cars to an impromptu drag race at red light sometimes. They have something like their souped up 1969 Camaro with custom manual shift and I have my 2010 Toyota Rav4 Sport with an automatic transmission and traction control. None of them have ever come close to beating me and mine is a stock family wagon that gets great gas mileage on the highway.

I don’t mean to be insulting but you don’t sound very knowledgeable about how automobile technology has progressed in the last 30 years. It is phenomenal to say the least. Even the mid-range brands are safer, more fuel efficient, much more powerful, and generally more luxurious than the older ones for roughly the same price as the older ones when adjusted for inflation.

If you still don’t want any part of that, buy a restored model from the past. My first car was a 1989 Mazda B2000 pickup truck that meets all of your criteria except it has an air conditioner and it still exists. It has 80hp and was a bitch to drive in bad conditions but you would probably love it. I could have that thing fixed up to pristine for you for a few thousand dollars. It doesn’t even have a stock radio. Perfect!

42

What’s the kit car market like in the US?

A kit car is a car that is sold as a bunch of components: however, there is usually an option to simply pay extra and have the manufacturer assemble the car for you.

Kit cars usually have fewer electronic gizmos than mass-produced cars, and as they are bespoke you could pare it down as much as you like.

Never owned one, so I can’t really advise on how practical an option this is, just throwing it out there.

43

Kit cars certainly exist in the U.S. but they are mainly for the hobbyist or aficionado market that wants a replica of a car that is no longer produced or has extreme customization. Overall driving performance is generally going to be inferior to any modern mid-range sedan and there is the hassle factor of getting it put together and registered. They generally aren’t daily drivers in other words. The people that build kit cars usually do it for a specific reason and saving money or building a better daily driver isn’t among those.

44

When I worked for BellSouth as a Services Technician their fleet vehicles were of much interest to those of us who spent 8 hours a day in them. Up until about 1997 Bell only purchased vans and trucks with no a/c, radios, power locks or power windows. Since I was a new guy in 1995 I spent many years in one of those tired old beaters. In 1999 I had proven myself enough and kissed enough management ass to get a brand new never driven before van! One of the first Chevy’s to make it to us. My boss handed me the keys and imagine my surprise! Power windows and locks, a real radio (still, no CD player) and THANK YOU LORD, HONEST TO GOODNESS ICE COLD BLOWING SNOWFLAKES IN SUMMER AIR CONDITIONING!?! I typed that in all caps because it was a huge deal. All the new vehicles were coming equipped this way. Some college boy in purchasing must have blown a fuse! Well, come to find our the addition of all these amenities had nothing to do with making us field techs more comfortable. We were told that it was actually costing more to delete the fancy items on the hundreds purchased by Bell each year than to purchase then with these options (I’m not quite sure I bought that). What I did buy however was that Bell was finding it impossible to sell the hundreds of old vehicles it was retiring each year when they didn’t have a/c. Yes, they sold some, but they were getting peanuts for them.

45

Cosigning Shagnasty… I actually ONLY am familiar with Kit car in the meaning of “a kit that you attach to a production car to make it look like a much more expensive car”.

46

In case there is any confusion however, that is just a subset of what the term means. It covers everything from a completely custom model, maybe only using an off the shelf chassis, through all levels or using off the shelf parts, right through to, yes, just bodykits.

Bodykits aren’t relevant to the OP however.

47

It depends on whether the tire pressure monitoring is indirect (comparing the speeds of each wheel, which is what ABS does) or direct (pressure sensor radio transmitters in each tire).

It was mandated as a (IMHO) disproportionate response to the Ford Explorer / Firestone issue.

Over here it’s Bimmer.

Anyway, the bundling of options into “packages” on US BMWs is mostly due to dealers wanting to have a small number of options in cars on their lots. Many BMWs are special-ordered, however. If you can find a willing dealer and BMWNA is in the right mood, it is possible to order non-standard options / colors. To go beyond adding or deleting options normally offered on a particular model, you need BMW Individual. That’s a lot harder to get here in the US (I have one).

Another part of the issue is that deposits for the purchase of new cars are often legally required to be fully refundable (despite what the dealer tells you). It is theoretically possible to order a BMW with Barney purple paint, neon green leather seating, and orange wood trim (that’s not mine, by the way, but those are all orderable colors in BMW Individual). No dealer would want to be stuck with such a “clown car”, particularly if they had to give back the deposit. Hence the small number of color combinations and option packages.

Comparing prices on “identical” BMW configurations between different countries, after factoring in exchange rates, taxes, and shipping / destination costs will reveal that in some countries the cars are priced much higher than in others. Traditionally we’ve had a pretty good deal in the US. Where the car is much more expensive, offering “a la carte” options may make the difference between an affordable car or an out-of-reach one for a buyer.

An Ariel Atom would technically satisfy the OP’s requirements, but I can guarantee they wouldn’t want one as a daily driver. Trust me, I know - I’ve put over 34,000 miles on mine.

48

Possibly. Manuals have lots of stuff to wear out and break too.

  1. lock-up torque converters have already been mentioned
  2. yes, it used to be that the difference was stark between the economy of an automatic and a manual. Y’know why? Because you were comparing a 3-speed, non-lock-up, non-OD auto vs. a 5-speed, OD manual. Nowadays, manuals pretty much top out at 6 speeds while we have 8- and soon 9-speed autos.

Yes, an automatic still gives up a couple percent efficiency due to losses driving its internal pump(s,) but that’s offset by the ability to run taller gear ratios thanks to the additional torque multiplication from the torque converter.

49

If you’re like me, you buy a car new and drive it until it falls about - usually around 12-14 years in my experience. Since I have no intention of re-selling my vehicle (except, eventually, for scrap when that is its sole remaining use) resale value matters not at all to me.

My 2002 Toyota Echo has power steering, air conditioning, and automatic transmission (due to my husband’s disability we will likely never own a manual as it would be extremely difficult for him to manage the clutch).

It does not have anti-lock brakes, traction control, power windows, power locks, or any form of security system other than the locks on the doors. (Indeed, possibly the most annoying thing about the car is that I constantly have to remind passengers to remember to manually lock their doors upon exiting.)

Having learned to drive without ABS I don’t miss it. Indeed, in our truck, which does have ABS, I have to remind myself NOT to pump the brakes in slick conditions.

The car does, of course, have front air bags. I wouldn’t mind side airbags.

The continually mounting piles of electronic gizmos - elaborate sound systems, video, GPS, etc. - do not interest me at all. I’m probably hopelessly old fashioned but I actually pay attention to the road while driving, particularly with the recent proliferation of distracted drivers. I learned to navigate with maps and road signs and while driving I wouldn’t want to be screwing with a GPS unit anyhow. The most I’ll do is have the radio on, and in difficult driving situations that gets turned off.

50

Really.
In 1973, I truly doubt you could buy a US made car with rack and pinion steering (we are talking US made cars, right, since in 1973 imports made up a small fraction of US car sales). And, having driven manual steering cars quite a bit, I have no doubt that the driver knows it’s a manual steering car. Sure, it doesn’t matter much when you’re moving, but parallel parking, or backing into/out of a parking space would give you a workout even in a VW bug (rack and pinion, no PS). Builds strong shoulders, just like a manual transmission builds up that left leg.

For those who “don’t care about the resale value”, you might not, but the vast majority of people who buy new cars do. You take a stripped down car, no power windows, no AC, no keyless entry, no Cruise Control, with a manual transmission, and you are going to have a hard time selling it. Sure, there is a very small subset of buyers that look for such vehicles, but they are looking for them because they are cheap, which means if you are selling, you will typically have it for sale much longer and have to discount the price just to sell it.

As for auto loans, sure, you put 10% down for a three year loan, and your credit is decent, you can buy one, but chances are it will have AC and PS, no matter what you do. But, you aren’t going to get a “no money down, 60 month” loan, unless, as I said, you can afford to pay cash anyway.

But to answer the OPs question, no, they don’t make “no frills” cars to fit your wants because they couldn’t sell enough of them to make it worth their time. Not only is the market too small, but the cost of these “options” is much lower is all models have them. The dealers have had too many non-AC cars sit on their lots for months and just can’t sell them. With AC, PS, keyless entry, and Cruise Control, they can sell even the Champagne-colored ones.

51

I haven’t had a problem with my cars going to 200,000 miles with automatic transmissions, and I’ve never had to replace a transmission. Of course, I also drive my car like a sane person, as does my spouse, and maybe we just don’t put as much stress on our vehicles as some other people do.

The only reason my Ford Festiva didn’t reach 300,000 miles is because it hit a deer at about 50 mph, which was not the fault of a failing transmission. The really good news is that no one in the car was hurt, although it sure put the hurt on the car (didn’t do the deer any good, either). The person who subsequently bought the wreck apparently rebuilt it, but I’m not sure it would count for reassuring you as a new transmission, along with may other items, was required to restore it to working order. Yes, a substantial portion of the original parts are still driving around Northwest Indiana, once in awhile we and the second owner catch a glimpse of it.

You have to consider the average driver. While yes, in theory manuals are more efficient they do require more knowledge and intelligence on the part of the operator. For some this is not a big deal, for others… a badly driven manual is inefficient, and I’ve seen plenty of manual drivers who are as sharp as a marble. In such cases an automatic is smarter than they are and would be more efficient.

I tend to get better than EPA estimates both city and highway, but as I noted, both I and my spouse are intelligent and sane drivers. Heck, I’ve even read the entire operator’s manuals for my vehicles, and how many people can say that? I expect that if we did drive a manual we’d be better yet but, as noted, my spouse has a disability that makes that impractical.

(He did drive a manual when he lived in Britain, but the British issued him a limited license, basically it was to commute to and from work during daylight hours. So it’s possible for him to drive a standard but after doing it for six months he decided an automatic, preferably with cruise control, was so much easier and possibly safer for him that he’s been strictly manual ever since. Since he has no feeling in his feet he had to look down every time he needed to clutch, which meant taking his eyes off the road)

If you mostly drive standards yes, you’re going to be better at that than automatics, or at least more comfortable, which may very well affect your driving.

52

Ford Pinto. In fact, the manual steering rack from the Pinto is still popular with hot rodders because of its small size and light weight.

53

Hassle is an understatement. Unlike what I gather is the case in the UK, in the US it’s generally not possible to road register a kit car that’s built from scratch. Or at least not legal-- there’s some states that will give you a set of plates on basically anything with wheels, even if it doesn’t comply with federal regulations. The feds don’t usually care but there’s always the chance they might decide to seize your grey market car, as some people with expensive JDM supercars have learned.

What kit cars are available in the US are those that require a donor vehicle that the car can be registered as, even if only a small part of the donor car is actually left. Although, again, the degree to which states will tolerate a fig-leaf VIN plate varies greatly. Cars based on VW Beetles used to be popular, and these days there’s some pretty cool Miata conversions like the Exoset roadster.
I just thought of one very basic car that’s available in the US:the new version of the Morgan Threewheeler which, thanks to not having usesless fluff features like four wheels, can be registered as a motorcycle in most states.

54

This sentence makes it sound like carbs were once an option :confused:

55

When my GF’s beater died a few years back, she did some research and discovered (one of) the cheapest new cars you could buy (at the time, 2009) was a Toyota Yaris hatchback. She was quite insistent on getting as basic (i.e. cheapest) a model as possible, so there’s roll-up windows, manual transmission, no security system, no power locks, and no traction control (which became standard equipment on the Yaris in 2010), but it still has power steering, ABS, and AC standard.

56

According to this, excavating would be correct as the first American produced cars to have rack and pinion were the 1974 Mustang II and Pinto.

57

Well, back in the carb era, fuel injection was once an option on some cars (usually as part of a different engine package; that is, I don’t think you could order just fuel injection, all else being equal).

58

The only “bare basic” option I’d like to go back to is manual windows. I like all the other stuff. Even manual I could go either way these days: even though manuals last longer IME, these days most manuals get slightly less gas mileage than automatics so that would be a wash.

But in the past few years, you don’t know how often I’ve seen people at the drive thru who had to open their doors to order. I assume it is because their power windows failed, thus impying that they fail more often than manual windows. ETA: altho I guess it’s possible that I’m just seeing the same car over and over again.

In fact, if there were two cars on the lot at the same price, one with manual windows, the other with power, I’d seriously hesitate on which one to take. I’d probably take the power windows for the resale value, though.

59

FWIW, even though I also grew up driving in the pre-GPS era, I find driving with a GPS to be much less distracting - I set it before I leave, and let it worry about finding the exits - I can concentrate on the traffic around me.

60

Why would we be talking about US cars, exactly?