# New Victorians? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 11, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-victorians/706957 "2014-12-11T17:10:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-victorians/706957/41 "2014-12-15T08:12:28Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > A stranger takes your wallet on the dance floor? Call the cops. Stranger cups your boobs? These things happen, they suck, move on. And while having your boobs cupped probably isn’t the end of the world, it probably won’t leave a girl traumatized for life, it certainly can’t be compared to rape, neither is having your wallet stolen. You make a good point, but I don’t really think comparing sexual assault to theft or robbery is a good idea. I’ve had my wallet stolen several times and once was attacked by four guys who stole my phone. I didn’t report either the thefts or the robbery, and I certainly don’t think they were traumatic in anything like the same way a sexual assault would be. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-victorians/706957/42 "2014-12-15T10:49:56Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > You make a good point, but I don’t really think comparing sexual assault to theft or robbery is a good idea. I’ve had my wallet stolen several times and once was attacked by four guys who stole my phone. I didn’t report either the thefts or the robbery, and I certainly don’t think they were traumatic in anything like the same way a sexual assault would be. I am really not trying to make a statement about trauma. Trauma is pretty subjective and personal and does not lend itself to comparison. I am talking about crime. I was mugged once and I called the cops–not because I cared about the (literal) $5, but out of a sense of social responsibility that if someone were mugging people in my apartment complex, it needed to be stopped. No one, from the 911 operator to the police who came out to my friends and family I told the story to ever questioned that calling the cops was an appropriate response. It was the first thing people asked when I told the story: “Did you call the cops?”. No one treats groping/grabbing/grinding like that. It’s just not seen as criminal. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-victorians/706957/43 "2014-12-15T13:25:38Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > the suggested indications of ‘too drunk to consent’ include inability to stand up and walk, inability to send a text message, **vomiting** , inability to talk clearly and so forth. Just to mention that “vomiting” doesn’t indicate a high level of intoxication to me. Alcohol makes me ill long before I’m unable to talk clearly. I begin to be ill after about four drinks (In fact I’ve never been unable to talk clearly). > [@](#): > > Given that the threshold of intoxication is so high, maybe a lot of men at that level would in fact have difficulty performing. Maybe. I don’t have any experience of such a high level of intoxication. Is it a fact or a wild guess? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-victorians/706957/44 "2014-12-15T13:28:19Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Changing rape laws to require affirmative consent would certainly make rape easier to prosecute, but I consider those standards as problematic as “against her will.” Hectoring universities into introducing such standards is no less problematic. I’m not sure how. Unless you’re actually asking for signed and notarized documents, I don’t see how it changes anything “I got affirmative consent” “No, he didn’t”. Now, what? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-victorians/706957/45 "2014-12-15T13:33:15Z")
I support the affirmative-consent standard, especially in the sensible form thereof where it means proper communication between people as they go along. How does this feel like?, you good?, hey do that again, come over here, oh yeah, keep going, and their nonverbal equivalents. Clear ongoing communication, not having to read arcane “signals”. And getting flat-out-wasted on drink or drugs really does not make for a good experience to begin with, that’s nothing like splitting a bottle of wine or sharing one joint and feeling mellow but still being aware of yourself and your surroundings – as mentioned before, there is no “drunk defense”. I am however concerned and have reservations with some institutions’ application of Title IX processes by which an administrative disciplinary action may be conducted with minimal or no recourse for a defense. IMO a disciplinary process does \ ***not** \*have to require the standard of a criminal conviction, but it must allow for realistic defense and the possibility of exoneration; and the adjudicating officer/office should be impartial vis-a-vis the parties in the complaint, not weighed upfront in favor of the complainant. The change in social attitude to drunk driving has been brought up, but there is a difference there in that when this transformation was happening the involvement of the criminal justice process was never excluded altogether. You could avoid jail by going to AA on first offense if there were no damages/victims, but BAC\>0.08 = arrest, period; and _if someone got hurt_, that means criminal charges. One of the issues these days with the campus sexual assault thing is if the administrative process, with its lower standard, could be used to NOT have to deal with the criminal justice system, at all. Which is kind of an old-fashioned thing, come to think of it: “No, we don’t want you to go to jail; we just want you to go away.” Part of the problem is that there are many who argue that exoneration in the criminal process MUST result in mooting of all disciplinary complaints, and that’s just not necessarily so. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-victorians/706957/46 "2014-12-15T13:39:02Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > In many of the college cases, what you are talking about is a one night stand with a stranger. Or sex on a first “date” between people who have had a few conversations after World Civ. That has bad idea written all over it. You don’t know this woman to know she won’t cry rape. You don’t know each other well enough to know who might be a walking petri dish. Who might be obsessive and turn into a stalker when they want more than a one night stand. What happens if pregnancy occurs? > > The neo Victorian mores make some sense - and not just from a rape standpoint. And frankly protect men as much as they protect women. So, we’re indeed at a point where casual sex is heavily discouraged, not by reactionnary Christians, but by “progressive” leftists. I can’t say I’m enthralled by this evolution. And I still think that a significant number of these people are in part motivated by the fact that they just don’t like casual sex. It doesn’t fit with their view of what sexuality and relationship should be, and as it is usual when it comes to sex, they’d very happy to have everybody else abandon their pervert ways to have only the kind of relationships they condone, and are perfectly happy with throwing hurdles in the way of “wrong” lifestyles. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-victorians/706957/47 "2014-12-15T13:50:20Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > You make a good point, but I don’t really think comparing sexual assault to theft or robbery is a good idea. I’ve had my wallet stolen several times and once was attacked by four guys who stole my phone. I didn’t report either the thefts or the robbery, and I certainly don’t think they were traumatic in anything like the same way a sexual assault would be. What kind of sexual assault? What kind of non-sexual assault? With what kind of consequences? An elderly lady in my neighborhood doesn’t leave any more her appartment (at all. the grocery store is by her door, and she now have them bringing her groceries to her appartment) after she was assaulted for a necklace. An ex’s aunt has been assaulted for her bag. She had the bad idea of trying to cling to it, and was kicked as a result. She has now limited movement in her arm. Both are certainly more severe than being gropped in the subway. And how could you tell whether they are or not more severe than an actual rape, when the assault results in lasting physical or psychological trauma? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-victorians/706957/48 "2014-12-15T14:29:53Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I am really not trying to make a statement about trauma. Trauma is pretty subjective and personal and does not lend itself to comparison. I am talking about crime. I was mugged once and I called the cops–not because I cared about the (literal) $5, but out of a sense of social responsibility that if someone were mugging people in my apartment complex, it needed to be stopped. No one, from the 911 operator to the police who came out to my friends and family I told the story to ever questioned that calling the cops was an appropriate response. It was the first thing people asked when I told the story: “Did you call the cops?”. No one treats groping/grabbing/grinding like that. It’s just not seen as criminal. I actually didn’t call the cops, partly because I didn’t think they would find the culprits anyway, and partly because I felt like prison is a nasty place, and I didn’t really feel like I wanted to send the four youths to prison for the loss of a cell phone. Partly, I think, I felt like it was my fault for not being more aware of my surroundngs. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-victorians/706957/49 "2014-12-15T14:32:07Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > So, we’re indeed at a point where casual sex is heavily discouraged, not by reactionnary Christians, but by “progressive” leftists. > > I can’t say I’m enthralled by this evolution. And I still think that a significant number of these people are in part motivated by the fact that they just don’t like casual sex. It doesn’t fit with their view of what sexuality and relationship should be, and as it is usual when it comes to sex, they’d very happy to have everybody else abandon their pervert ways to have only the kind of relationships they condone, and are perfectly happy with throwing hurdles in the way of “wrong” lifestyles. All I’ve suggested, here and elsewhere, is waiting till a few dates so you know the person a bit beter, and have some sense of what sex might mean to them and how they might react. That’s a far cry from what some conservative Christians might say, ‘wait until marriage’. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-victorians/706957/50 "2014-12-15T14:38:53Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I actually didn’t call the cops, partly because I didn’t think they would find the culprits anyway, and partly because I felt like prison is a nasty place, and I didn’t really feel like I wanted to send the four youths to prison for the loss of a cell phone. Partly, I think, I felt like it was my fault for not being more aware of my surroundngs. This reads like a textbook example of the reasoned used to encourage women not to report minor sexual assault–don’t ruin his life, it was partially your fault, it can’t be proven anyway. Are you trying to say that women should use those same considerations? And even if it’s the case, it still remains true that we think of mugging someone as a crime. It may not always get reported, but it’s clearly criminal behavior. That’s really the only point I was making, but you keep responding with posts that don’t disagree with my actual premise but discuss the analogy. This confuses me. I am arguing “Minor sexual assault is not viewed as a crime in the way that, say, mugging is”. You seem to be responding with “Well, mugging really isn’t a crime, either.” But you aren’t coming out and saying it. I am confused what your point is. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-victorians/706957/51 "2014-12-15T14:41:06Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > The change in social attitude to drunk driving has been brought up, **but there is a difference there in that when this transformation was happening the involvement of the criminal justice process was never excluded altogether.** You could avoid jail by going to AA on first offense if there were no damages/victims, but BAC\>0.08 = arrest, period; and _if someone got hurt_, that means criminal charges. One of the issues these days with the campus sexual assault thing is if the administrative process, with its lower standard, could be used to NOT have to deal with the criminal justice system, at all. Which is kind of an old-fashioned thing, come to think of it: “No, we don’t want you to go to jail; we just want you to go away.” Part of the problem is that there are many who argue that exoneration in the criminal process MUST result in mooting of all disciplinary complaints, and that’s just not necessarily so. Psst. . . I did say: > [@MandaJo](#): > > This kind of reminds me of driving drunk in the 80s. \*\*It basically took a 2-prong tact to lower drunk driving rates: one, changing the legal code to put real consequences in place, and, two, transforming public perceptions of how big of a deal it was. \*\* I think a lot of people still put things like groping, grinding, and grabbing over in the “being a dick” pile, not “being a criminal” pile. It’s nothing they’d ever do themselves, and they are pretty appalled that it happens, but it’s “really really rude”, not “mildly criminal”. It’s still behavior people try to make excuses for, or “contextualize” in a way they’d never do for rape. A stranger takes your wallet on the dance floor? Call the cops. Stranger cups your boobs? These things happen, they suck, move on. And while having your boobs cupped probably isn’t the end of the world, it probably won’t leave a girl traumatized for life, it certainly can’t be compared to rape, neither is having your wallet stolen. It absolutely takes both. > [@clairobscur](#): > > I’m not sure how. Unless you’re actually asking for signed and notarized documents, I don’t see how it changes anything “I got affirmative consent” “No, he didn’t”. Now, what? It’s not about making convictions easier to obtain. It’s about redefining what’s wrong. Right now, it’s okay to have sex with someone who is utterly passive, maybe lying there crying softly and refusing to make eye contact, as long as they don’t say no. That shouldn’t be okay. That needs to be defined as wrong. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-victorians/706957/52 "2014-12-15T15:02:47Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > Probably not. > > If the woman’s dementia is advanced enough that she doesn’t recognize her husband, then as far as she’s aware she’s being raped by a stranger. The fact that they slept in the same bed for 50 years doesn’t have any bearing on that at all. > > It’s a tragedy for both of them. But it’s also clearly rape. Consenting to sex is something you can do moment by moment. It doesn’t require a working short-term memory, which is usually the first part of the brain to go. I would think that most of the people who are institutionalized for dementia would still be capable of consenting to sex, and of expressing their consent or lack thereof. Unless someone watched tapes and saw that she wasn’t consenting, or appeared confused, I would think it likely that she did consent to sex with her husband. (But can’t testify to that now, due to her mental disability.) Of I were a juror in that case, she’d have to be really freaking out-of-it for me to vote to convict. If she just had trouble speaking or something, that would not be enough evidence. Especially if the person bringing the charges has a known ax to grind with the husband. While I am certainly happy that the law now recognizes the possibility of maritial sex, I still think that within a marriage, there is reasonably an assumption that sexual contact can be initiated. And if your husband cups your breasts and you aren’t currently interested, the response is, “sorry, not now”, not, “stop that you creep!” > [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Bloomberg ran a long [article](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-12-09/rape-case-asks-if-wife-with-dementia-can-say-yes-to-her-husband.html) about the case that is quite nuanced. There appears to be significant evidence that she recognized him and understood what they were doing together, at least in general. It’s not apparent what evidence there may be as to the specific incident with which he has been charged. > > The article quotes several geriatricians who hold that view, noting that memory loss does not necessarily indicate lack of capacity to consent (and indeed, enjoy sex). > > FWIW, she was examined on the night in question and found to have no vaginal bruising or tearing. I bet that examination was more upsetting than the sex. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-victorians/706957/53 "2014-12-15T15:20:05Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Right now, it’s okay to have sex with someone who is utterly passive, maybe lying there crying softly and refusing to make eye contact, as long as they don’t say no. That shouldn’t be okay. That needs to be defined as wrong. I don’t think that what you’re describing is considered okay currently, or even was considered okay during the last 30 years or so at least. I believe you’re mistaken about what people in general feel is okay. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-victorians/706957/54 "2014-12-15T17:15:22Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I don’t think that what you’re describing is considered okay currently, or even was considered okay during the last 30 years or so at least. > > I believe you’re mistaken about what people in general feel is okay. That’s what I was thinking. What you describe there is in no way OK, and I don’t think anybody would say it was. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-victorians/706957/55 "2014-12-15T17:59:26Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > That’s what I was thinking. What you describe there is in no way OK, and I don’t think anybody would say it was. I third that statement. Forcing yourself on a woman who is is passive, crying, and refusing to make eye contact sounds ilke rape to me. But I doubt that comes close to describing what happened between the guy and his senile wife. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-victorians/706957/56 "2014-12-15T18:09:47Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I third that statement. Forcing yourself on a woman who is is passive, crying, and refusing to make eye contact sounds ilke rape to me. I too agree with **clairobscur** and **dangermom** , but I feel obliged to point out, in response to what you said, that the quoted statement from **Manda JO** said nothing about **forcing** oneself on the woman. If the sex was consensual, even if the consent was given halfheartedly, you can’t say it’s rape just because the woman isn’t enjoying it or actively participating in it. There’s a distinction between what’s morally not OK and what’s legally prosecutable. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-victorians/706957/57 "2014-12-15T18:30:17Z")
Here’s a bunch of people on this board who feel the onus is on the unwilling person to say “no”, not on the active person to be sure it’s a “yes”. > [@Lack of affirmative consent as rape?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-affirmative-consent-as-rape/506884/5): > > I think that w **ithout an express no or something similar it can’t be rape,** at least in situations where people are capable of talking and understanding. > [@Lack of affirmative consent as rape?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-affirmative-consent-as-rape/506884/9): > > **I don’t think that requiring a woman to say “No” ( in a situation where the isn’t any overt threat at least ) is an unfair burden**. > [@Lack of affirmative consent as rape?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-affirmative-consent-as-rape/506884/64): > > She never gave \*explicit, affirmative \*consent. > > Again, assuming the lack of a physical threat, she is in control of this situation. **She can say no. She can get up and leave. She has any number of options besides having sex with him, so one must assume that the sex was consensual**. The OP of the thread is on the fence: > [@Lack of affirmative consent as rape?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-affirmative-consent-as-rape/506884/54): > > I guess that’s an interesting question. I know I’ve read about scenarios where the guy asks the woman for sex a few times, she says no. He asks again and she kind of just lies there ignoring him, and he takes that as yes. She meant, “No,” and she was sick of him asking and just kind of gave in. I don’t know if that’s rape in any meaningful sense of the word. It certainly doesn’t sound all that sexy and if I were in that situation I’d just say, “No.” Or if someone started to initiate sex without asking–I’m not sure my default position would be, “Oh no, he’ll flip out and kill me if I say no, so I’ll just get it over with.” Is silence indicative of consent? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-victorians/706957/58 "2014-12-15T18:32:55Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I too agree with **clairobscur** and **dangermom** , but I feel obliged to point out, in response to what you said, that the quoted statement from **Manda JO** said nothing about **forcing** oneself on the woman. If the sex was consensual, even if the consent was given halfheartedly, you can’t say it’s rape just because the woman isn’t enjoying it or actively participating in it. > > There’s a distinction between what’s morally not OK and what’s legally prosecutable. Right, and this is the gray area that affirmative consent standards are trying to address. I honestly cannot understand why this is controversial. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-victorians/706957/59 "2014-12-15T18:41:32Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I third that statement. Forcing yourself on a woman who is is passive, crying, and refusing to make eye contact sounds ilke rape to me. Of course it is. But this is exactly the kind of scenario that affirmative consent distinguishes, as opposed to absence-of-resistance. Those posters who argue that some expression of affirmative consent is unfairly burdensome or not necessary, are in fact arguing that this scenario should not be counted as rape, not real rape. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-victorians/706957/60 "2014-12-15T19:11:30Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Here’s a bunch of people on this board who feel the onus is on the unwilling person to say “no”, not on the active person to be sure it’s a “yes”… Crying and refusing to make eye contact are a way of saying “no”. Maybe not the best way, but it would take an extreme autistic or a complete idiot to fail to understand that. Just as reaching out and pulling the other person towards you is a way of saying “yes”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-victorians/706957.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-victorians/706957.md?page=4)