# New WoW General Discussion Thread 6/8/10 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 9, 2010, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-wow-general-discussion-thread-6-8-10/542480 "2010-06-09T00:30:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 456
**Author:** ![Palooka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/palooka/32/2902_2.png) [@Palooka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palooka)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-wow-general-discussion-thread-6-8-10/542480/9102 "2011-04-26T17:37:21Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > But again, I’m not talking about dungeons, I’m talking about combat while solo questing, which is how I prefer to level. Though it occurs to me that my mage may have been a less than optimal example, since Fire mages didn’t see such dramatic changes as many other classes/specs. But then, that still caused a _different_ difficulty because on my mage I spent that month between 4.0.1 and 4.0.3 just doing exactly what I’d been doing before 4.0.1: doing my dailies using the exact same spells I’d been using all along, and at level 80 in Frost badge gear, she was already killing most level 80 non-elite mobs with 1-2 hits, and I didn’t _have_ to learn anything new (other than a few rather minor changes). Even in Wrath dungeons I kept doing the same thing I’d always done, because it worked fine. It was when 4.0.3 dropped that the trouble started — I had the same set of skills I’d always had, but suddenly the way I used them didn’t work any more, and the mobs were much more dangerous (and I had no tank to keep them off me). > > By contrast, with 4.0.1 and the complete overhaul/reworking of Ret paladin mechanics, I actually had to completely relearn how to play my class/spec, but I had a “soft landing” in that I got to practice the new abilities/techniques against level 80 Wrath mobs, and by the time 4.0.3 came around I was comfortable enough with them that transitioning to Cata mobs was fairly simple. I wasn’t trying to explain how to get good at questing as easily as possible. I was explaining how to get good at DPS as quickly as possible. If that isn’t your priority, that’s cool. I thought it was clear that I was talking about dungeons, but I guess not. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-wow-general-discussion-thread-6-8-10/542480/9103 "2011-04-26T17:40:29Z")
**SFG** posted while I was composing my own wall o’ text… > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Ahhhhhhhh, I thought you meant “NPCs that had been added prior to the launch,” not specifically “NPCs that only existed for the pre-launch events.” Gotcha. For my own part, I didn’t realize that the reforging NPC was solid 😃 > [@](#): > > That’s because someone in a restaurant necessarily knows what the ingredients are, whereas two identical “dishes” in a programming context could have wildly different “ingredients.” So it’s more akin to somebody ordering a particular well-known “standard” dish (let’s say Chicken Cordon Bleu) at one restaurant, and then later ordering the CCB at a different restaurant where it’s prepared by a different chef, and expecting it to be identical to the CCB at the first restaurant. When the fact is that every chef has their own interpretation/variation on every “standard” dish, so it’s going to be different from one place to the next. Heck, this happens even with different cooks at the same restaurant. Though in my tombstone example, it really seemed to be more a matter of sloppiness or oversight (in the same way a careless cook might accidentally add the wrong herb or spice to a recipe, or forget to add one, or add too much/too little). While I may not be a programmer, I know enough to be aware of the concepts of “best practices” and “elegant code” (since these concepts apply even to markup languages like HTML/CSS), and in this specific instance it appears that somebody who was responsible for “tombstone B” didn’t follow the same procedure as the person responsible for “tombstone A”. It might have been something as simple as one of them inadvertently forgetting to set whatever flag determines “solid” or “non-solid”. It would appear (in this specific instance) that this may have indeed been an error; while hopping around the graveyard in Brill on Sunday I discovered it’s been fixed — the “crosslike” tombstones are now “non-solid” just like the “square” tombstones. Though I haven’t checked any other graveyards and this “fix” may have just been a part of the complete redesign of Brill. > [@](#): > > Did you cast any kind of AOE when they ran past you? A ground effect, spillover from something you were attacking, etc. could have put you on their threat table. Even a debuff like a Warrior’s Demo Shout would probably do it. Nope, as mentioned in my previous post, I never [deliberately] use AOE as Ret when engaging a single target, unless I get an add. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-wow-general-discussion-thread-6-8-10/542480/9104 "2011-04-26T18:04:34Z")
> [@Palooka](#): > > I wasn’t trying to explain how to get good at questing as easily as possible. I was explaining how to get good at DPS as quickly as possible. If that isn’t your priority, that’s cool. I thought it was clear that I was talking about dungeons, but I guess not. The original question had to do with simply initially learning a new spec that I’d previously never tried, on an existing max-level toon, i.e. switching from Ret to Prot. The two specs have almost completely different sets of abilities, and speaking _only_ for myself, I would never consider jumping into a dungeon with a new spec without first making sure I was comfortable with the new set of skills (mainly, my basic combat rotation) via solo combat outside of dungeons. And for me personally, I just learn better by mastering each new ability as it’s introduced while leveling. To use your StarCraft scenario (or for me, WarCraft I, II, and III, since my SC experience is very limited) that game progresses the same way: you start out with the ability to build the basic buildings and train the basic units, and as you progress through the storyline the game gradually introduces more and more advanced buildings/units. By the time you’re ready to try the custom maps, you’re comfortable with all the buildings/units, and you _need_ to know how to use all of them. You couldn’t easily (well, _I_ couldn’t) jump straight to playing the advanced custom maps after only playing the first couple scenes of the game. Sure, the tools are all there for me, but I don’t know how to use them to their best advantage. So in WoW, learning a spec from level 1 simply works best _for me_, which is why I have trouble with DKs and with trying to switch specs on a max-level toon when I’ve only played one spec of that class (I’d raised two paladins to level 80 as Ret before I ever tried Prot). ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-wow-general-discussion-thread-6-8-10/542480/9105 "2011-04-26T20:51:40Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > Though in my tombstone example, it really seemed to be more a matter of sloppiness or oversight […] and in this specific instance it appears that somebody who was responsible for “tombstone B” didn’t follow the same procedure as the person responsible for “tombstone A”. It might have been something as simple as one of them inadvertently forgetting to set whatever flag determines “solid” or “non-solid”. See, this is the kind of dangerous situation you get into when you know just a bit about something. If I can be blunt, the fact that you are \*still \*saying things like this is proof positive, to me anyway, that you have a very limited idea of what programming is like, which you’ve expanded into a \*very mistaken \*wider conception. It is\* highly unlikely \*that objects in WoW have an easily toggled collision flag. Instead, what you are probably looking at is two entirely different kinds of objects. One of them is a solid object, which you can’t walk through. The other is ground clutter, which you can. These would be coded and treated \*entirely differently \*in the game, even though they’re both tombstones. The cooking analogies don’t work because _programming isn’t cooking_. Anyone can analyze a dish and see what went into it. Two identical sandwiches will obviously contain the same ingredients. But two \*seemingly \*identical sandwiches in a video game have a nigh-infinite number of ways they could have been implemented, such that an element of one sandwich could be easily changed while the other sandwich would have to be redesigned completely to implement the simple change from the first sandwich. I’m sorry to keep harping on this, but you keep saying things that are just plain wrong, and people making ignorant statements about how programs work are a bit of a pet peeve of mine. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-wow-general-discussion-thread-6-8-10/542480/9106 "2011-04-26T21:12:41Z")
> [@Runestar](#): > > I actually have the Right Eye of Rajh sitting in my bags - my hangup on equipping it are the words “Your criticals have a **chance** to add 1710 to your strength for 10 seconds”. Looking on Wowhead, it appears that the ‘chance’ is 50%. Combine that with my current critical rating of 9.22%, and I guess I figure it’s not going to proc very often - about 4.6% of all melee attacks. So I stick with the guaranteed +234 strength (which should be +33 DPS) of the Harrison trinket which applies to all my attacks, rather than the uber-boost of the Eye which doesn’t appear to occur that often (and last very long). > > If my math is completely off-base, please feel free to tell me. Sorry, **Runestar** …I misunderstood you back a few posts…I thought you were also looking for off-spec gear for a tank. I am using the Eye because with some trinkets with “Use: xyz”, I tend to forget to actually USE the damn thing, so I tend to be somewhat lazy and equip trinkets that have a chance to proc…I figure it’s better to have a low chance of proccing rather than not “using” it all. My record of throwing out the battle standards during boss fights reflects this. So I like my Darkmoon Hurricane card and Right Eye of Rajh. I did get the Heroic Mark of Khadros last night and am tempted to use it, but then I would have to reforge a lot more hit (285 hit = 30% of what’s required) in order to get that tasty +285 STR, which might be too much of a stretch. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-wow-general-discussion-thread-6-8-10/542480/9107 "2011-04-26T23:19:32Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > it really seemed to be > it appears > It would appear … that this may These phrases from my post are deliberately chosen “qualifiers” that indicate that I’m _speculating_ and not presenting my argument as “proof positive”. I’ve already admitted I’m not a programmer, I don’t really think there’s anything unreasonable about speculating. **SFG** , are you a Blizzard programmer and just not allowed to say so publicly? You seem extraordinarily invested in proving that a Blizzard programmer couldn’t possibly have made an actual mistake or that something might have been poorly thought out or written sloppily. For one more cooking analogy, you don’t have to be a professional cook to notice when your food tastes like shit. Tell me that one’s wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-wow-general-discussion-thread-6-8-10/542480/9108 "2011-04-26T23:38:03Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > **SFG** , are you a Blizzard programmer and just not allowed to say so publicly? You seem extraordinarily invested in proving that a Blizzard programmer couldn’t possibly have made an actual mistake or that something might have been poorly thought out or written sloppily. Trust me, anybody that had a DK and played a bit today before the hotfix knows Blizzard programmers can screw up big-time. Although it was fun while it lasted… As to the broader issue, it’s really just a question of resources. As an engineer and programmer in my day job I know I make thousands of compromises in the name of saving time and due to the way the software was designed 10+ years ago. It’s just the reality of the situation. So could they convert every NPC to the non-overlapping type? Sure. Will they? Not unless it becomes a much, much bigger problem than it is - it’s just not a good use of resources. I would add that the fact that the first major patch (or at least the first half of the first major patch) contains only re-hashes of two already existing zones is a pretty clear sign that Blizzard is devoting fewer resources to WoW than they have in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-wow-general-discussion-thread-6-8-10/542480/9109 "2011-04-27T01:45:55Z")
I’m planning on killing a couple guildmates. Various guildies, including me, have been working hard to gather herbs and other high-end mats for the bank, to let raiders make potions, food, etc., for raids. We’ve always been fortunate in that people haven’t been douches about how they withdraw stuff. Until recently. Any herbalist knows how tough it is to get Twilight Jasmine. A couple weeks ago, one guildie took about 4 stacks of the stuff out of the guild bank and didn’t even deposit any flasks back in. Today? A long-time member took out 6 stacks of Twilight Jasmine which another guildie had just replenished… his profession? **Inscription**. If that twat turned all of that jasmine into ink, I will personally travel to where he lives and rip his balls off. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Palooka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/palooka/32/2902_2.png) [@Palooka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palooka)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-wow-general-discussion-thread-6-8-10/542480/9110 "2011-04-27T02:03:55Z")
Why are you banking materials that you could easily go into the marketplace for? The one thing about this game I’ve never been able to grasp about this game is why guild banks exist. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-wow-general-discussion-thread-6-8-10/542480/9111 "2011-04-27T02:18:17Z")
Easy access for raiding - too many fuckheads are playing the market by buying out all high-end mats and running up the prices to obscene levels. If we need some flasks or dragon feasts for a raid, we should have some mats on hand without bleeding ourselves dry. ---
**Author:** ![Palooka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/palooka/32/2902_2.png) [@Palooka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palooka)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-wow-general-discussion-thread-6-8-10/542480/9112 "2011-04-27T02:23:05Z")
That makes a lot of sense. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-wow-general-discussion-thread-6-8-10/542480/9113 "2011-04-27T02:41:43Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > **SFG** , are you a Blizzard programmer and just not allowed to say so publicly? You seem extraordinarily invested in proving that a Blizzard programmer couldn’t possibly have made an actual mistake or that something might have been poorly thought out or written sloppily. Trust me, this ain’t a new argument. There’s actually a term coined in the City of Heroes community: [Standard Code Rant](http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/9066/code2jq8.png)[sup]\*[/sup]. The linked flowchart contains the specifics, but essentially it boils down to: If you start making predictions about the ease of a coding change, and you don’t actually have personal experience with the code in question, you’re probably wrong. It doesn’t have anything to do with the potential sloppiness of the code in question; in fact, it’s generally best to assume that the code _is_ written sloppily, and in a unique way that prevents easy fixes. You’re a good guy, **Rik**. We’re just trying to keep you from picking up a bad habit. - Key to names in the flowchart: JLove = art designer. Posi, Castle, poz = devs/ex-devs. Arcanaville = _scary_ smart player. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-wow-general-discussion-thread-6-8-10/542480/9114 "2011-04-27T09:34:29Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > You seem extraordinarily invested in proving that a Blizzard programmer couldn’t possibly have made an actual mistake or that something might have been poorly thought out or written sloppily. Programmer (non games but financial systems which are as complicated in their own special way) here and I can tell you that even the smallest code change can and most definitely will have unintended consequences. No one is arguing that it isn’t a bug and that a programmer made a mistake\*. What we are (I think) arguing is that the fix is non trivial and probably low priority for what is a minor display issue that does not influence game play. I wrote (most of) a trading system about 5 years ago which is used by about 20 people at my firm. We have 250 open bugs or enhancements and, since release, we have closed ~1,400. How big do you think the bug list is for wow? - of course, it’s a feature really… ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-wow-general-discussion-thread-6-8-10/542480/9115 "2011-04-27T11:26:05Z")
And, yet another one of our ADD-teen-guy (authenticator? what’s that?) contingent gets his account hacked, and because he’s pretty high-ranking in the guild, the hacker looted a ton of stuff out of the bank last night. :smack: Our temp guild leader (the main one is traveling the world for a few months right now and is not logging in on a netbook, so her characters are demoted until she returns) isn’t online because he announced he was going to go play Mortal Kombat until he gets bored/done with it, so who knows how long that is, and you send messages and hope he’ll check them and restrict withdrawals guild-wide. Meanwhile my husband is guildkicking the hacked characters, but one of them can’t be booted? WTF? At least Mr. “I turn the rarest herbs into plain ink” Guildie got in a snit and bought a crapload of Twilight Jasmine to replenish the guild bank supply and more. ---
**Author:** ![Runestar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/74df32/32.png) [@Runestar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Runestar)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-wow-general-discussion-thread-6-8-10/542480/9116 "2011-04-27T12:44:01Z")
> [@Yeticus\_Rex](#): > > Sorry, **Runestar** …I misunderstood you back a few posts…I thought you were also looking for off-spec gear for a tank. I am using the Eye because with some trinkets with “Use: xyz”, I tend to forget to actually USE the damn thing, so I tend to be somewhat lazy and equip trinkets that have a chance to proc…I figure it’s better to have a low chance of proccing rather than not “using” it all. My record of throwing out the battle standards during boss fights reflects this. So I like my Darkmoon Hurricane card and Right Eye of Rajh. I did get the Heroic Mark of Khadros last night and am tempted to use it, but then I would have to reforge a lot more hit (285 hit = 30% of what’s required) in order to get that tasty +285 STR, which might be too much of a stretch. I have the same problem Yeti - I forget to use trinkets all the time, so anything that acts as a ‘passive’ ability (i.e., one that is constantly on, like the +STR boost of the Harrison trinket) or one that can proc automatically (like the Eye) is always a better choice for me, because I know that I won’t remember to activate them in the heat of battle. 🙂 So yes, I was really trying to figure out upgrades for my DPS equipment, and wondering if there was a better trinket out there than my Harrison’s trinket, as that’s currently the lowest-level item in my gear. I did head over to Mount Hyjal yesterday and picked up the better boots from the quartermaster, so that’s all good. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-wow-general-discussion-thread-6-8-10/542480/9117 "2011-04-27T12:49:12Z")
> [@Runestar](#): > > I have the same problem Yeti - I forget to use trinkets all the time, so anything that acts as a ‘passive’ ability (i.e., one that is constantly on, like the +STR boost of the Harrison trinket) or one that can proc automatically (like the Eye) is always a better choice for me, because I know that I won’t remember to activate them in the heat of battle. 🙂 I have that problem too, so I make a macro key that actives the trinket when I use a particular ability. If it’s something I’m ok with using a lot, I tie it to a common attack. If it’s for a “omg save my ass” power for my tank, I link it to a similar “omg help” ability that the tank has. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-wow-general-discussion-thread-6-8-10/542480/9118 "2011-04-27T13:04:15Z")
The solution, obviously, is to max out Alchemy so you can use the Eye along with the Alchemist’s stone that gives you +301 strength and increases the effect of healing on you :). It just dawned on me this week that I needed to craft that stone for my off-spec set. Those of you who are familiar with the Alliance side: where’s the closest place to Stormwind where I can farm light leather? I’ve outleveled my leatherworking, so I have stacks of heavier leather and hide I can’t use until I can gather a bunch more light leather. ---
**Author:** ![Headrush042](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Headrush042](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Headrush042)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-wow-general-discussion-thread-6-8-10/542480/9119 "2011-04-27T13:17:47Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Those of you who are familiar with the Alliance side: where’s the closest place to Stormwind where I can farm light leather? I’ve outleveled my leatherworking, so I have stacks of heavier leather and hide I can’t use until I can gather a bunch more light leather. Boars and coyotes in Westfall. Boars in Redridge sometimes give 2, but sometimes they also give medium leather. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-wow-general-discussion-thread-6-8-10/542480/9120 "2011-04-27T13:57:42Z")
Thanks - Wesfall is convenient since I’m still questing in Stranglethorn and they should be gray for me, which will avoid me outleveling my friend while I gather. I guess since the patch dropped I can empty my bags of most of the pet food I’d been holding on to… ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-wow-general-discussion-thread-6-8-10/542480/9121 "2011-04-27T14:44:52Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > I have that problem too, so I make a macro key that actives the trinket when I use a particular ability. If it’s something I’m ok with using a lot, I tie it to a common attack. If it’s for a “omg save my ass” power for my tank, I link it to a similar “omg help” ability that the tank has. Here is what I use on my Tankadin, the /console and /script lines remove the ‘You can’t use that item yet’ message and sound: ```auto #showtooltip Shield of the Righteous /console Sound_EnableSFX 0 /script UIErrorsFrame:Hide(); /use 13 /use 14 /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); /script UIErrorsFrame:Show(); /console Sound_EnableSFX 1 /cast Shield of the Righteous ``` [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-wow-general-discussion-thread-6-8-10/542480.md?page=455) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-wow-general-discussion-thread-6-8-10/542480.md?page=457)