# New York Democrats Hide the Keys to the Senate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 12, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-democrats-hide-the-keys-to-the-senate/499605 "2009-06-12T21:34:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-democrats-hide-the-keys-to-the-senate/499605/41 "2009-06-16T19:43:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Legal? Or not? I would argue that its legal because the passage of either bill doesn’t represent a “benefit” to the Legislator himself - as opposed to the current situation where a new position was offered directly to that Legislator (Estrada). Does the office of President Pro Tem come with a raise? ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-democrats-hide-the-keys-to-the-senate/499605/42 "2009-06-17T14:07:39Z")
The two Democratic turncoats, Espada and Monserrate, are indeed slimier than most. [Espada](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_Espada,_Jr.#Controversies) lives in a posh suburb of Westchester and not even in his home district of the Bronx. He is currently under investigation for using a health clinic for personal and political reasons. He has years of back fines payable to the Campaign Finance Board related to races as early as 2001. The state has stopped funding some of his non-profits due to “administrative deficiencies” and “misuse of funds”. [Monserrate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiram_Monserrate#Arrest_and_indictment) is even more colorful. He comes to this controversy fresh from slashing his girlfriend with a shiv made out of broken glass. He was indicted in March and if convicted, he will be bounced out of the Senate thanks to to our state constitution. Of course he claims it was an accident. These two are first class. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-democrats-hide-the-keys-to-the-senate/499605/43 "2009-06-17T14:41:07Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > I would argue that its legal because the passage of either bill doesn’t represent a “benefit” to the Legislator himself - as opposed to the current situation where a new position was offered directly to that Legislator (Estrada). Does the office of President Pro Tem come with a raise? Well, there’s certainly a benefit to him in the sense of, “Look, voters, at the pork I bring home!” But we don’t look at it that way – we assume that, as you hint, the benefit is to the voters. And he might argue that his assumption of the office of President-Pro-Tem is to provide benefit to the voters as well. Consider a case where two Reps are contending for the office of Speaker. One says, “Vote for me for Speaker, and I’ll support your public works project and make sure it comes to a floor vote.” Legal? Of course it is. More to the point, it’s non-justiciable. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-democrats-hide-the-keys-to-the-senate/499605/44 "2009-06-17T19:28:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Consider a case where two Reps are contending for the office of Speaker. One says, “Vote for me for Speaker, and I’ll support your public works project and make sure it comes to a floor vote.” Legal? Of course it is. But that’s not the situation here. The situation here is “Vote for me for Speaker and I’ll make sure you get a bigger office, larger staff, more power, and more access to the press to help with your reelection.” Legal?\* \*I’m not arguing that it doesn’t happen exactly that way all the time, just that based on the above-quoted New York law, it starts to shade over to a darker-than-normal gray area. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-democrats-hide-the-keys-to-the-senate/499605/45 "2009-06-17T20:37:43Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > The two Democratic turncoats, Espada and Monserrate, are indeed slimier than most. > > [Espada](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_Espada,_Jr.#Controversies) lives in a posh suburb of Westchester and not even in his home district of the Bronx. He is currently under investigation for using a health clinic for personal and political reasons. He has years of back fines payable to the Campaign Finance Board related to races as early as 2001. The state has stopped funding some of his non-profits due to “administrative deficiencies” and “misuse of funds”. > > [Monserrate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiram_Monserrate#Arrest_and_indictment) is even more colorful. He comes to this controversy fresh from slashing his girlfriend with a shiv made out of broken glass. He was indicted in March and if convicted, he will be bounced out of the Senate thanks to to our state constitution. Of course he claims it was an accident. > > These two are first class. Oh, you are saying they are perfect choices for the Republican Party! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-democrats-hide-the-keys-to-the-senate/499605/46 "2009-06-17T20:43:15Z")
I’ve been trying to understand this too. I mean, I’m a New Yorker (and an Albanyite - not a scumbag though, I hope) - and I swear, I understand other politics better than our own. What a joke, and other states are sniggering up their sleeves at us. Le sigh. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-democrats-hide-the-keys-to-the-senate/499605/47 "2009-06-17T20:43:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > More to the point, it’s non-justiciable. Okay, why do you think _that_’s the point? Or that the competent court here is not the one of Public Opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-democrats-hide-the-keys-to-the-senate/499605/48 "2009-06-17T22:18:37Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > But that’s not the situation here. The situation here is “Vote for me for Speaker and I’ll make sure you get a bigger office, larger staff, more power, and more access to the press to help with your reelection.” Legal?\* > > \*I’m not arguing that it doesn’t happen exactly that way all the time, just that based on the above-quoted New York law, it starts to shade over to a darker-than-normal gray area. I cannot imagine a court ever wading into that area and seeking to make those distinctions. I There’s no problem with traditional bribery, but when it comes to more shades-of-gray conduct like this, it’s simply non-justiciable. So pointing to the law here as proof that it’s bribery is simply useless. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-democrats-hide-the-keys-to-the-senate/499605/49 "2009-06-17T22:28:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > As I understand it, the GOP convinced two Democrats to switch alleigances, and voted in a new Senate leader. In retaliation, the Democrats locked the Senate doors, hid the copies of current bills, and spirited away the official stenographer in an effort to stop the Senate from doing business. Cite? Link? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-democrats-hide-the-keys-to-the-senate/499605/50 "2009-06-17T23:29:47Z")
What, you don’t believe it happened, BG? ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-democrats-hide-the-keys-to-the-senate/499605/51 "2009-06-18T14:09:39Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Oh, you are saying they are perfect choices for the Republican Party! 😃 Very funny. 😉 In a way, I prefer the simple honesty of slashing your SO in the face than, say, the antics of Joe Bruno. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-democrats-hide-the-keys-to-the-senate/499605/52 "2009-06-21T17:49:37Z")
[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/21/AR2009062101029.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/21/AR2009062101029.html) Keys may be hidden, but Paterson’s going to call 'em back into session. With the judge of the Court of Appeals as a possible President. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-democrats-hide-the-keys-to-the-senate/499605/53 "2009-06-21T18:23:37Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > What, you don’t believe it happened, BG? Of course I believe it happened; they’re New Yorkers. 😉 Still, we have standards here. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-democrats-hide-the-keys-to-the-senate/499605/54 "2009-06-22T14:46:29Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > The two Democratic turncoats, Espada and Monserrate, are indeed slimier than most. > > [Espada](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_Espada,_Jr.#Controversies) lives in a posh suburb of Westchester and not even in his home district of the Bronx. He is currently under investigation for using a health clinic for personal and political reasons. He has years of back fines payable to the Campaign Finance Board related to races as early as 2001. The state has stopped funding some of his non-profits due to “administrative deficiencies” and “misuse of funds”. > > [Monserrate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiram_Monserrate#Arrest_and_indictment) is even more colorful. He comes to this controversy fresh from slashing his girlfriend with a shiv made out of broken glass. He was indicted in March and if convicted, he will be bounced out of the Senate thanks to to our state constitution. Of course he claims it was an accident. > > These two are first class. And I see that the Democrats have welcomed back with open arms the “more colorful” Monserrate. The GOP has apparently kept the (less colorful?) Espada. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-democrats-hide-the-keys-to-the-senate/499605/55 "2009-06-22T16:04:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And I see that the Democrats have welcomed back with open arms the “more colorful” Monserrate. The GOP has apparently kept the (less colorful?) Espada. Yup. This whole thing is a real local embarassment presided over by a chump of a governor. The only one who seems to be able to call any shots at all is Golisano. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-democrats-hide-the-keys-to-the-senate/499605/56 "2009-06-22T16:44:03Z")
So, what exactly do you want a cite on, BG? I’ll get it for you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-democrats-hide-the-keys-to-the-senate/499605.md?page=2)