# New York Metro Trains - Why no direct connection between Brooklyn and Queens? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 3, 2016, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-metro-trains-why-no-direct-connection-between-brooklyn-and-queens/767557 "2016-10-03T12:23:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-metro-trains-why-no-direct-connection-between-brooklyn-and-queens/767557/1 "2016-10-03T12:23:40Z")
I’m puzzled why there’s no direct line running between Brooklyn and Queens. If you’re in mid-Brooklyn, you either have to go on the J-Z or L to Manhattan and then around to Queens, or go to the end of the J-Z eastward and then back on the E. Why no direct north-south connection? For instance, why doesn’t the M continue north from its current terminus at Metropolitan Avenue to either of the interchanges at Jackson Heights-Roosevelt, or Forest Hills, or both? [http://web.mta.info/nyct/maps/subwaymap.pdf](http://web.mta.info/nyct/maps/subwaymap.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Kzbre5m](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f08c70/32.png) [@Kzbre5m](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kzbre5m)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-metro-trains-why-no-direct-connection-between-brooklyn-and-queens/767557/2 "2016-10-03T13:04:43Z")
Because there wasn’t much reason to go between Queens and Brooklyn, at least when they built the lines. Everything was in and out of the city (Manhattan). There is always the GG line – yeah, I know it’s now the “G” line, but it _was_ the GG line. And the parks and cemeteries between the boroughs sort of blocked everything. You could always take a [bus](http://web.mta.info/nyct/maps/busbkln_new.pdf) (large PDF map), if you wanted to go down and visit your aunt Myrtle in Maspeth, why she never moved I never could get your father to explain… Oh, and they’re subways. Metro is those trains that go to New Jersey and up to Connecticut. There is a Train that cuts through Brooklyn and Queens, but that’s that fancy-schmancy Long Island Rail Road. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-metro-trains-why-no-direct-connection-between-brooklyn-and-queens/767557/3 "2016-10-03T13:15:17Z")
Here’s one explanation: > **[Finally, Someone Explains Why Getting from Brooklyn to Queens is the Absolute...](https://www.villagevoice.com/2013/05/31/finally-someone-explains-why-getting-from-brooklyn-to-queens-is-the-absolute-worst/)** > > If I want to visit my 81-year-old grandmother in Forest Hills, Queens, from my place in Bushwick, Brooklyn, Google Maps tells me I’m approximately five... This would be cool if it happens: > **[Mayor de Blasio to Propose Streetcar Line Linking Brooklyn and Queens...](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/04/nyregion/mayor-de-blasio-to-propose-streetcar-line-linking-brooklyn-and-queens.html)** > > The proposal, which Mr. de Blasio plans to present in his State of the City speech, calls for a 16-mile rail line that can flow with automobile traffic and be installed on city streets. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-metro-trains-why-no-direct-connection-between-brooklyn-and-queens/767557/4 "2016-10-03T13:49:42Z")
> [@Kzbre5m](#): > > There is always the GG line Old person detected. But seriously, this is the right answer. The subway system was built to transport people from Brooklyn, Queens, and The Bronx into and around Manhattan. The Crosstown line (now called the G) was a part of the city-financed independent system (IND) and was originally to have a westward-running wye where it connects to the Queens Blvd line. That would have allowed a loop service from Brooklyn to Queens, through the 53rd Street tunnel, down the IND 8th Ave line, through the Cranberry tubes and on to Hoyt-Schermerhorn and back up to Queens. But that wye was never built and the G was limited to heading east on Queens Blvd. And a few years ago, G service was cut and it now terminates before it even reaches the Queens Blvd line. More recently, Mayor DeBlasio has proposed a thoroughly asinine and poorly-conceived waterfront streetcar plan that would connect Brooklyn and Queens. Fixing the Crosstown Line wye would likely be more productive, in light of the looming shutdown of the Canarsie Line. But that’s unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-metro-trains-why-no-direct-connection-between-brooklyn-and-queens/767557/5 "2016-10-03T14:44:45Z")
Ah yes, the G line that doesn’t actually connect to the J-Z … ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-metro-trains-why-no-direct-connection-between-brooklyn-and-queens/767557/6 "2016-10-03T17:13:11Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > But seriously, this is the right answer. The subway system was built to transport people from Brooklyn, Queens, and The Bronx into and around Manhattan. Right. You can’t go from the east side of the Bronx to the west side by subway without going into Manhattan either. In fact, it’s even quite convoluted and time-consuming to get from the East Bronx to the West Side of Manhattan. You generally have to go all the way down to Times Square, and it can take three or more trains depending on how you go. Getting from the Bronx to parts of Brooklyn is also a major expedition. ---
**Author:** ![Kzbre5m](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f08c70/32.png) [@Kzbre5m](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kzbre5m)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-metro-trains-why-no-direct-connection-between-brooklyn-and-queens/767557/7 "2016-10-03T18:05:53Z")
[QUOTE=friedo] The Crosstown line (now called the G) was a part of the city-financed independent system (IND) and was originally to have a westward-running wye where it connects to the Queens Blvd line. That would have allowed a loop service from Brooklyn to Queens, through the 53rd Street tunnel, down the IND 8th Ave line, through the Cranberry tubes and on to Hoyt-Schermerhorn and back up to Queens. But that wye was never built and the G was limited to heading east on Queens Blvd. [/QUOTE] While looking for a detailed map of this G loop I found a google map with the subway lines imposed. https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=40.7069243,-73.9894971&z=12&output=embed&dg=ntvb The M could continue north but it would have to take over a freight train line. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-metro-trains-why-no-direct-connection-between-brooklyn-and-queens/767557/8 "2016-10-03T19:37:06Z")
God what a pain in the ass it was to get to Brooklyn by way of seeming California (born and bred Queens boy). All trains lead to or come from Manhattan or Brooklyn, historically. What’s cool is there are still a few train stations in Brooklyn that haven’t been painted over, and the original [Arrow1] Brooklyn/ [Arrow2] The City signs are still there. Now The City is just “Manhattan.” I don’t know how old they are. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-metro-trains-why-no-direct-connection-between-brooklyn-and-queens/767557/9 "2016-10-03T20:12:09Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Getting from the Bronx to parts of Brooklyn is also a major expedition. We discovered that when we went to the Bronx Zoo. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-metro-trains-why-no-direct-connection-between-brooklyn-and-queens/767557/10 "2016-10-03T22:34:56Z")
The whole purpose of the subway system is to get people to and from work. I guess not enough people from Brooklyn work in Queens, and vice versa. ---
**Author:** ![bizerta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@bizerta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizerta)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-metro-trains-why-no-direct-connection-between-brooklyn-and-queens/767557/11 "2016-10-03T22:51:25Z")
Long Island is the most populated island in the USA. Even though tracks already exist, one can not get from Long Island to New Jersey without changing trains. For that matter, the same applies to upstate NY or Connecticut. All Long Island trains (including the subway because Queens and Brooklyn are on Long Island) do not carry passengers beyond the city limits of NYC. Trains carry passengers into the city. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-metro-trains-why-no-direct-connection-between-brooklyn-and-queens/767557/12 "2016-10-03T23:05:43Z")
> [@bizerta](#): > > Long Island is the most populated island in the USA. Even though tracks already exist, one can not get from Long Island to New Jersey without changing trains. For that matter, the same applies to upstate NY or Connecticut. All Long Island trains (including the subway because Queens and Brooklyn are on Long Island) do not carry passengers beyond the city limits of NYC. That’s true, but at least one can transfer from the LIRR to NJT relatively painlessly at Penn Station. (I mean, except for the pain of actually being in Penn Station.) And there is one special service currently offered by Metro-North (and operated by NJ Transit) from the New Haven Line to the Meadowlands via Penn Station, on game days only. Not very useful if you’re commuting to NJ, though. After the East Side Access project is complete (any decade now, really!) there will be spare weekday capacity at Penn, and Metro-North is researching bringing service there. It can be reached from the New Haven Line (and therefore CT) via the Hell Gate Bridge, and from the Hudson Line via the Empire Connection. Both of those routes are currently used by Amtrak services. (Acela from Boston -\> New Haven Line -\> Penn -\> to DC, and Empire from Albany -\> Hudson Line -\> Penn.) ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-metro-trains-why-no-direct-connection-between-brooklyn-and-queens/767557/13 "2016-10-04T00:24:05Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I’m puzzled why there’s no direct line running between Brooklyn and Queens. > > If you’re in mid-Brooklyn, you either have to go on the J-Z or L to Manhattan and then around to Queens, or go to the end of the J-Z eastward and then back on the E. > > Why no direct north-south connection? For instance, why doesn’t the M continue north from its current terminus at Metropolitan Avenue to either of the interchanges at Jackson Heights-Roosevelt, or Forest Hills, or both? > > [http://web.mta.info/nyct/maps/subwaymap.pdf](http://web.mta.info/nyct/maps/subwaymap.pdf) You do realize that the J/Z and the M and the A (and maybe others) go through Brooklyn on the way to Manhattan from Queens? The subway system is basically set up as sort of a hub and spoke with the hub being Manhattan. The M train actually does go to Forest Hills these days - it goes from Queens to Brooklyn then through Manhattan and then back to Queens. (When I was a kid , after Manhattan it went back into Brooklyn toward Coney Island. ) It’s not that there are no trains that run between Brooklyn and Queens - it’s that there are particular neighborhoods that you can’t travel between without transferring, usually in Manhattan. Which actually happens with starting and ending points in every borough - my mother lives near the M in Queens and I live near the J also in Queens . To take the train to her house. I have to transfer in Brooklyn. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-metro-trains-why-no-direct-connection-between-brooklyn-and-queens/767557/14 "2016-10-04T01:50:00Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > … via the Hell Gate Bridge, … I’m not sure where this is…isn’t there a Hell’s Gate (named after the eddies at some confluence of one of the rivers and the Manhattan Island, or something like that? North tip? South tip? (Toldja, I’m from Queens.) Is that the same place, and I, like many people, I suspect, gave Hell it’s appositive dominion by slipshod speech, and certainly with NYC’s Hell’s Kitchen neighborhood in mind? ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-metro-trains-why-no-direct-connection-between-brooklyn-and-queens/767557/15 "2016-10-04T01:56:45Z")
Cx: confluence of both rivers, that is, one river, the Hudson, and the estuary the East River, temporarily borrowed from the Long Island Sound, sinking many of our intrepid Dutch colonists. North tip. ---
**Author:** ![gkster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gkster/32/14107_2.png) [@gkster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gkster)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-metro-trains-why-no-direct-connection-between-brooklyn-and-queens/767557/16 "2016-10-04T02:00:35Z")
Hell Gate Bridge: > **[The Strange History Of NYC's Mighty Hell Gate](https://gothamist.com/news/the-strange-history-of-nycs-mighty-hell-gate)** > > To understand the bridge, you must understand the tumultuous waters it spans. ---
**Author:** ![bizerta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@bizerta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizerta)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-metro-trains-why-no-direct-connection-between-brooklyn-and-queens/767557/17 "2016-10-04T02:14:40Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > … After the East Side Access project is complete (any decade now, really!) there will be spare weekday capacity at Penn, and Metro-North is researching bringing service there. It can be reached from the New Haven Line (and therefore CT) via the Hell Gate Bridge, and from the Hudson Line via the Empire Connection. Both of those routes are currently used by Amtrak services. (Acela from Boston -\> New Haven Line -\> Penn -\> to DC, and Empire from Albany -\> Hudson Line -\> Penn.) However, those Metro-North trains (like Amtrak) will not stop in Queens. Still, no direct passenger service from Long Island beyond the city limits of NYC. There is a lot of hype in Boston to run through trains from North Station to South Station, at a cost of eight billion dollars. If there are no through trains from Long Island with 7+ million people, it makes the Boston project look like pork. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-metro-trains-why-no-direct-connection-between-brooklyn-and-queens/767557/18 "2016-10-04T02:18:24Z")
> [@gkster](#): > > Hell Gate Bridge: > [The Strange History Of NYC's Mighty Hell Gate - Gothamist](http://gothamist.com/2016/02/22/hell_gate_history_nyc.php) Wow, that’s a long, interesting up to date article (2015). Thanks. Well, I still think it should take the comma. ETA: Hell Bells! ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-metro-trains-why-no-direct-connection-between-brooklyn-and-queens/767557/19 "2016-10-04T02:37:05Z")
There is one feasible plan to link Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx using existing rail right-of-way. It’ll never happen, but it would be pretty cool. [The Triboro](http://library.rpa.org/interactive/the-triboro/) ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-metro-trains-why-no-direct-connection-between-brooklyn-and-queens/767557/20 "2016-10-04T02:44:42Z")
> [@bizerta](#): > > However, those Metro-North trains (like Amtrak) will not stop in Queens. Still, no direct passenger service from Long Island beyond the city limits of NYC. There have been proposals in the past for LIRR through-service to NJ via Penn. It might be feasible after ESA is finished and the Gateway tunnels are built. Right now there are only two tunnels connecting Penn to NJ (as opposed to four connecting Penn to LI) and they’re at maximum capacity and then some. But we’re talking about a more than a decade from now, at the soonest. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-metro-trains-why-no-direct-connection-between-brooklyn-and-queens/767557.md?page=2)