# New York, New York. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 17, 2010, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-new-york/546975 "2010-07-17T00:35:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![seosamh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@seosamh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seosamh)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-new-york/546975/121 "2010-07-22T12:04:24Z")
This might be a slightly away from the OP, but I understand that people from the USA are in the habit of saying street names without the appropriate suffix. Back in the 80s my brother worked in the (now long-gone) British Rail Travel Centre in Regent Street and whenever an American rolled up to his counter and demanded “Ah wanna go to Ahksferd, godammit!” he had to determine whether he meant the lovely university town about an hour away by train or Oxford _Street_, where all the shops are, which was 3 minutes around the corner. A similar but less fatal confusion arose between Liverpool (home of a certain popular 60s beat combo, 3 hours away by train) and Liverpool _Street_ (on the eastern edge of the City of London). ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-new-york/546975/122 "2010-07-22T12:19:34Z")
[QUOTE=scifisam2009] It’s becoming more common to just write the town and postcode, but it’s not standard form. [/QUOTE] Actually, it _is_ standard form, or at least it should be. The simple answer is that UK postal addresses do not include a county at all. The [post town](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_town) removes the need for any county to be used, although you can still add the county (of the post town, not the actual address) if you like. My smallish town became a post town 15 years ago or so. Before that, the post town was a larger town which is in a neighbouring county, so if you included a county, it wouldn’t be the county I actually lived in. The old address was, say: 123 Colophon Street, Coltown, BIGTOWN (, Beeshire) AB12 3CD. Now it’s just: 123 Colophon Street, COLTOWN (, Ceeshire) AB34 5CD. The counties in brackets are not part of the postal address. ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-new-york/546975/123 "2010-07-22T12:38:03Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Point made. But consider this … > > Americans have long been considered insular and clueless about all things outside their borders. What you’re seeing is the rough beginnings of us learning to think a bit from a non-American point of view. > > 30 years ago your American counterpart would have announced “I’m from Houston” and never have thought for a moment about whether that made any sense to you. And 30 years ago it may not have. > > Now we’re bending over backwards a bit: “Springfield, Illinois. It’s the state capital and near the center of the country, just below one of the Great Lakes.” > > Soon enough (20 years?) we’ll get the tone right. Or maybe not, because the tone is likely to be different from person to person. I come from a smallish city in Pennsylvania that most American Dopers will have heard of, but that doesn’t mean it’s widely known in the rest of the world. So when Norwegians ask me where I come from, I could answer:[ul][li]Lancaster, Pennsylvania[_]a smallish city in Pennsylvania[_]near Philadelphia[_]Pennsylvania, a state in the Northeast[_]south of New York City[\*]the Northeast, and yes, it snows there ;)[/ul]None are really inaccurate, so which one is appropriate to use? It depends on the person, their past experiences, and their level of interest. So of course I don’t always get it right. I’m not psychic.[/li] One thing is clear, “Lancaster” alone is a useless description, even after establishing that we’re talking about the US. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-new-york/546975/124 "2010-07-22T14:34:02Z")
> [@seosamh](#): > > This might be a slightly away from the OP, but I understand that people from the USA are in the habit of saying street names without the appropriate suffix. I’d be surprised by this, because there are a lot of places in the States where some streets are distinguished _only_ by their suffix (or ‘street type’ as it’s sometimes called). Consider all the roads in Atlanta that are named ‘Peachtree’ for example. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-new-york/546975/125 "2010-07-22T15:40:53Z")
> [@seosamh](#): > > This might be a slightly away from the OP, but I understand that people from the USA are in the habit of saying street names without the appropriate suffix. That depends. The street I live on is the only one with that name in the entire metropolitan area, so a suffix is superflous. There’s only one on the map, one in the post office database, one on the tax rolls, etc. By contrast, my sister lived on 82nd Terrace, and instructed me to refer to it that way, lest it be confused with 82nd Street or 82nd Place. ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-new-york/546975/126 "2010-07-22T18:52:43Z")
There’s also the matter that I may be from a city that you’ve never heard of. If I told you I’m from East Cupcake, that means nothing to you. But if I told you I’m from East Cupcake, Indiana, you would at least know where Indiana is. ---
**Author:** ![TXCowboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/76d3ee/32.png) [@TXCowboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TXCowboy)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-new-york/546975/127 "2010-07-22T20:12:23Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > … > > but New York is “the City”. > > There ain’t no other. Now see, if you said “the City” to me, I would think of Los Angeles not New York… Joe Friday: “This is the City. Los Angeles, California. I work here… I’m a cop.” Ok ok, maybe I watched too much Dragnet as a kid 😃 ---
**Author:** ![fjs1fs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9e8a1a/32.png) [@fjs1fs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fjs1fs)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-new-york/546975/128 "2010-07-22T20:22:52Z")
> [@Baron\_Skinley\_Von\_Clipper](#): > > It doesn’t bother me at all, I was just wondering why people feel the need to point it out. Paris is probably not the best example. > New York needs no further explanation, nor does Oklahoma city or Houston. New York DOES need further explanation. One could be from upstate NY and say “I’m from NY.” If I say I am from NY, NY, I am making it clear that I am from New York CITY. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Skinley\_Von\_Clipper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@Baron\_Skinley\_Von\_Clipper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Skinley_Von_Clipper)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-new-york/546975/129 "2010-07-22T21:01:36Z")
> [@fjs1fs](#): > > New York DOES need further explanation. One could be from upstate NY and say “I’m from NY.” If I say I am from NY, NY, I am making it clear that I am from New York CITY. So I say “Hi fjs1fs, where are you from?” to which you reply; “I’m from New York, New York”. Now to my English ears that just sounds weird, like you’re trying to do some sort of Frank Sinatra impersonation. It would sound pretty normal if you said “I’m from New York City”. Or “I’m from upstate New York”. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-new-york/546975/130 "2010-07-22T21:12:38Z")
And then there are people who don’t know there’s a country called Australia and another country called Austria. They show up in Vienna, and want to know how to get to the outback. I bought a t-shirt in Vienna, showing a yellow diamond with the silhouette of a kangaroo, and the words “No kangaroos in Austria.” Yes, people can be that ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2010, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-new-york/546975/131 "2010-07-23T12:43:01Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > There is … an Odessa in … Russia. The last time I saw the name on a map it was in Ukraine. > [@not\_alice](#): > > BTW, do you know what state Kansas City is in? No peeking! Missouri, what’s the problem? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![PigBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/97f17d/32.png) [@PigBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigBoy)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2010, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-new-york/546975/132 "2010-07-23T13:26:48Z")
> [@Baron\_Skinley\_Von\_Clipper](#): > > So I say “Hi fjs1fs, where are you from?” to which you reply; “I’m from New York, New York”. > > Now to my English ears that just sounds weird, like you’re trying to do some sort of Frank Sinatra impersonation. > > It would sound pretty normal if you said “I’m from New York City”. Or “I’m from upstate New York”. Same to my American ears. People in this thread keep pointing out that “New York, New York” is a way to distinguish the city from the rest of the state. But who says that? I’ve never heard anybody say it in earnest; it’s almost always been “New York City.” ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2010, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-new-york/546975/133 "2010-07-23T13:56:17Z")
Use of “the City” seems to be dependent on the location of the speaker. People living within about 35 miles of a given metropolis will use “the City” as shorthand for it. For example, where I live now, “I’m going into the City tomorrow morning” would mean the speaker is headed into Raleigh; people in DeWitt or Cicero NY would mean Syracuse; those in Cheetowaga or Lancaster (also NY) would mean Buffalo. Beyond that bound in the Northeastern U.S… New York City would be the meaning, as the pre-eminent metropolis of the region. In Home Counties England, it would reference the financial center located within the historic City of London, as differentiated from Westminster and the boroughs that with it comprise Greater London. On the broader question, the U.S. and Canada tend to use state/province names as clarifiers far more than anyone else (setting Australia to one side, as I’m not familiar with usage there) simply because eponymy is far more common in North America. The only two place names I can think of in the U.K. where there might be confusion are Newcastle and Kingston, and if any likelihood of confusion is apt to result, the river name is appended (e.g. Newcastle-upon-Tyne) for clarification. But there is only one Lancaster, only one Rochester, only one Belfast, only one Birmingham, only one Manchester, only one Portsmouth. But there are Kingstons in Ontario, New York, and Jamaica Rochesters in New York and Minnesota, Vancouvers in Washington and B.C., Portlands in Maine and Oregon, Springfields in Massachusetts and Illinois, Salems in Massachusetts and Oregon, Burlingtons in Vermont, New Jersey, and North Carolina, Newarks in New Jersey, Delaware, and Ohio … and without major strain I can think of occasions when I might make a post making reference to the majority of them. (The Eastman School of Music and the Mayo Clinic are located in Rochester, for example – two different Rochesters.) ---
**Author:** ![Ispolkom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47774/32.png) [@Ispolkom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ispolkom)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2010, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-new-york/546975/134 "2010-07-23T14:02:45Z")
Near Indiana, Pennsylvania, is California, home of California University, which is part of the Penn State system. I’ve never lived near New York, but in the Bay area, San Francisco arrogated the title “The City,” a usage often seen in the San Francisco Chronicle. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-new-york/546975/135 "2010-07-24T10:24:52Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > And then there are people who don’t know there’s a country called Australia and another country called Austria. They show up in Vienna, and want to know how to get to the outback. I bought a t-shirt in Vienna, showing a yellow diamond with the silhouette of a kangaroo, and the words “No kangaroos in Austria.” > > Yes, people can be that ignorant. I knew an Australian over here who said he was complimented on his excellent English by some Thai university student. Said the guy really thought it odd how good his English was. He could only assume the kid thought he was Austrian. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-new-york/546975/136 "2010-07-24T17:27:04Z")
> [@seosamh](#): > > This might be a slightly away from the OP, but I understand that people from the USA are in the habit of saying street names without the appropriate suffix.. It varies a lot. I haven’t been to NYC, but from its portrayals in countless novels and films, it’s pretty clear to me that identifying your street as just West 53rd or East 60th is standard practice. Everyone knows you mean midtown. The Post Office asks us to use all the street name suffixes as appropriate, except for “St.”, when addressing mail. I don’t think they particularly mind if we do write ‘St.’ in the address, but generally speaking it’s the ‘default’ and not needed. In L.A. we tend to name all the suffixes when referring to streets in conversation. Since there are a few “terraces”, “places”, and even a few “courts”, “walks” and “steps”, it’s usually necessary. With regard to San Francisco I read once that the City itself is known for hardly using suffixes at all. Maps seem to bear this out–it’s just Haight, Masonic, Fell, Grant, Gough, and so on. OTOH Columbus is an Avenue, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-new-york/546975/137 "2010-07-24T17:59:13Z")
> [@PigBoy](#): > > > [@Baron\_Skinley\_Von\_Clipper](#): > > > > So I say “Hi fjs1fs, where are you from?” to which you reply; “I’m from New York, New York”. > > > > Now to my English ears that just sounds weird, like you’re trying to do some sort of Frank Sinatra impersonation. > > > > It would sound pretty normal if you said “I’m from New York City”. Or “I’m from upstate New York”. > > Same to my American ears. People in this thread keep pointing out that “New York, New York” is a way to distinguish the city from the rest of the state. But who says that? I’ve never heard anybody say it in earnest; it’s almost always been “New York City.” Yeah, no one from New York City actually says “I’m from New York, New York.” That’s bizarre. That’s only how it’s written out when sending mail. > [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > It varies a lot. I haven’t been to NYC, but from its portrayals in countless novels and films, it’s pretty clear to me that identifying your street as just West 53rd or East 60th is standard practice. Everyone knows you mean midtown. Well that’s cause East or West automatically mean streets. (Except for West Broadway, I suppose, which is a totally different avenue than Broadway.) Streets run east-west, avenues run north-south and only go up to 12th Ave. (Btw, did the board setting just change to be able to do nesting quotes? I couldn’t do that before.) ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-new-york/546975/138 "2010-07-24T21:05:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Same to my American ears. People in this thread keep pointing out that “New York, New York” is a way to distinguish the city from the rest of the state. But who says that? I’ve never heard anybody say it in earnest; it’s almost always been “New York City.” Context is everything. If we’re talking about the differences between living in New York or Los Angeles, everyone knows we mean the cities, or at least the respective metro areas. If the discussion is dealing with things that Manhattan is famous for, like Times Square and the Metropolitan Museum, “New York” clearly means the City. OTOH if you put me in front of a globe or map and desire me to point out “New York”, I’m going to have to ask you which New York you mean. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-new-york/546975/139 "2010-07-24T21:17:47Z")
I was just looking at Amtrak’s website. For the Northeast Corridor services that stop in New York they have omitted the “NY” qualification in their timetables. By contrast, for the Pacific Surfliner, Los Angeles still bears the “CA” appendage–as does _ **every other city on the route, although they are ALL in California!** _ 😕 ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-new-york/546975/140 "2010-07-24T22:26:45Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > > [@Candyman74](#): > > > > We don’t need to because we don’t have many repeated names. > > So any city, town, or village name from anywhere in the world could be reported without specification of where it is? You would recognize every single place name, not only in England, but also in Scotland, Wales, Ireland, France, Spain, and every other place in the world? Since you mention Ireland (albeit in passing), the usage in Ireland is very similar to that in the US. The town or village will be followed by the name of the county; e.g. “Newcastle, Co. Dublin”, “Holywood, Co. Wicklow”, “Bangor, Co. Down”. Exceptions would be cities such as Cork, Dublin or Belfast, towns that are in the county of the same name (you would never say “Wicklow, Co. Wicklow”; instead you would say “Wicklow town”) or where you have a reasonable expectation that the listener knows where the place is. I think the interesting question here is not why Americans say “Paris, France”, but why non-Americans find it annoying. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-new-york/546975.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-new-york/546975.md?page=8)