# New York Times hires unapologetic racist writer **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 4, 2018, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086 "2018-08-04T10:58:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/201 "2018-08-07T18:02:27Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Really, I think this is pretty weak. I’ve been perfectly clear throughout (to the point of tedium) that I don’t think Jeong is not oppressing anyone, and that the _harm_ of her tweets is not comparable to true racism or misogyny. Yet the moment I fail to include the explicit disclaimer, the same old straw man is trotted out. > > If we’re so far down the rabbit hole that we can’t agree that fuck-white-people rhetoric is divisive and counterproductive, that fuck-any-class-of-people is wrong in _principle_ regardless of the _degree_ of harm or the power relationship, then I don’t think the cognitive failure is on my part. Not a strawman, why not just label it what it is, prejudice. But I will note that you are a bit touchy here, why allow yourself to do so and then bitch when people who have truly suffered oppression and assign a moral failing to their frustrations? Why are you uniquely granted the right to be so much more fragile than your fellow citizen? Are you really surprised that they may be pissed off for being treated as Untermensch? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/202 "2018-08-07T19:10:03Z")
> [@](#): > > **Budget Player Cadet** > Here’s a possible explanation: the Times learned from their mistake and didn’t make it again. I’d buy that except for the fact that if this was the case, then they should’ve at least referenced the prior firing of Quinn Norton, and how they were changing their attitude considering a similar situation had happened again. Problem is they didn’t do that. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/203 "2018-08-07T19:16:01Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > But I will note that you are a bit touchy here, why allow yourself to do so and then bitch when people who have truly suffered oppression and assign a moral failing to their frustrations? > > Why are you uniquely granted the right to be so much more fragile than your fellow citizen? Are you really surprised that they may be pissed off for being treated as Untermensch? Thanks for the insight. But it was _your_ comment that I found tedious, not Sarah Jeong’s. Does finding _you_ annoying place me in opposition to all marginalized people? Jeong has been quite clear that she feels her rhetoric was wrong. She stopped tweeting in the “fuck white people” style long before this was “exposed”, and has apologized sincerely. So far as I can discern, my view on the issue is exactly the same as Jeong’s: that’s this style of rhetoric is a mistake, because the impact is divisive; but that this mistake doesn’t define her, she’s not a racist, and that she deserves her place at the Times. So are _you_ failing to hear the perspective of this “Untermensch”? > [@Riemann](#): > > The dominant narrative on the Left comes perilously close to sounding like we should be treating marginalized groups with _intellectual_ kid gloves, that POC have been so damaged by historical prejudice that the poor delicate things can’t think clearly, so of course we can’t hold POC to the same standards of discourse as privileged white people. That we just want to hear their _anger_ and _frustration_, not debate ideas. [my own typos edited out] ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/204 "2018-08-07T19:20:25Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Thanks for the insight. But it was _your_ comment that I found tedious, not Sarah Jeong’s. Does finding _you_ annoying place me in opposition to all marginalized people? > > Jeong has been quite clear that she feels her rhetoric was wrong. She stopped tweeting in the “fuck white people” style long before this was “exposed”, and has apologized sincerely. So far as I can discern, my view on the issue is exactly the same as Jeong’s: that’s this style of rhetoric is a mistake, because the impact is divisive; but that this mistake doesn’t define her, she’s not a racist, and that she deserves her place at the Times. > > So are _you_ failing to hear the perspective of this “Untermensch”? > > [my own typos edited out] I try my best, but thats the bitch about privilege, it is hard to see the extra barriers others face. I simply will never experience it and it will be an ongoing process my entire life. I do try to ask and understand though vs resorting to some asinine model minority myth. But ya I get you were being fragile about my statement, once again are you surprised that people that have been screwed over because of no fault of their own are pissed? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/205 "2018-08-07T19:20:49Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Not a strawman, why not just label it what it is, prejudice. > > But I will note that you are a bit touchy here, why allow yourself to do so and then bitch when people who have truly suffered oppression and assign a moral failing to their frustrations? > > Why are you uniquely granted the right to be so much more fragile than your fellow citizen? Are you really surprised that they may be pissed off for being treated as Untermensch? That kind of viewpoint is stupid. I’ll cite an example why; > **[Prejudice plus power](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Prejudice_plus_power#Criticisms_of_the_definition)** > > "Prejudice plus power" is a redefinition of words like "racism"\[1\]\[2\] and "sexism",\[3\] taking on the following form: > [@](#): > > **Rational Wiki Prejudice\_plus\_power** > > [Prejudice+Power] has legitimized overt race- and gender-based hate speech; if it’s okay to say hateful things about white men, the claim that it’s not okay to say them about other groups becomes tenuous. It has lent credibility to claims that whites, especially straight white men, are under attack. It has subverted the moral authority of anti-racism—and of liberalism (in the classic sense), dismissed in current progressive discourse as “a philosophy of white male domination.” And it has so trivialized the concepts of bigotry and racism that they have lost much of their stigma. When wearing a sombrero for Halloween can get you labeled a racist, the label becomes meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/206 "2018-08-07T19:22:29Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > That kind of viewpoint is stupid. I’ll cite an example why; > > [Prejudice plus power - RationalWiki](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Prejudice_plus_power#Criticisms_of_the_definition) Strawman Please provide a single example where i said it was acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/207 "2018-08-07T19:28:40Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Please provide a single example where i said it was acceptable. Please provide a single example where Riemann said people in general shouldn’t complain about being unjustifiably screwed over ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/208 "2018-08-07T19:30:43Z")
Done > [@Riemann](#): > > What’s troubling is those who insist that she has nothing to apologize for, and that this kind of divisive racist rhetoric (whether satire or not) is _okay_. Apparently now it’s all about _intent_ and _context_. Yet all progressives know that with real ingrained racist bias it’s the _impact_ of what we say and do that’s paramount, regardless of intent or context. Sarah Jeong seems to be one of the few on the left who is intelligent enough to realize (and as you say, she came to this conclusion well before this furore started) that it’s hypocritical and counterproductive to claim that this standard should only apply to white people. > > The dominant narrative on the Left comes perilously close to sounding like we should be treating marginalized groups with _intellectual_ kid gloves, that POC of color have been so damaged by historical prejudice that the poor delicate things can’t think clearly, so of course we can’t hold POC to the same standards of discourse as privileged white people. That we just want them to hear their _anger_ and _frustration_, not debate ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/209 "2018-08-07T19:35:32Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > …once again are you surprised that people that have been screwed over because of no fault of their own are pissed? Of course I’m not surprised. It’s one thing to try to empathize with people’s lived experience, it’s impossible for an old white fart like me to truly understand what it’s like to live as a black teenager in Detroit, or a young Korean woman. I’ll try my best, and listen and try to learn. But it’s quite another to _patronize_ people. She’s a highly intelligent Harvard graduate. I would hope her brain functions rather better than mine. I’ll debate her ideas on their merits, and criticize them when I think they are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/210 "2018-08-07T19:38:49Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > Please provide a single example where Riemann said people in general shouldn’t complain about being unjustifiably screwed over > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Done I’m bemused. If you think that’s remotely what I’m saying there, what we’ve got here is a failure to communicate. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/211 "2018-08-07T19:55:01Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Strawman > > Please provide a single example where i said it was acceptable. Here; > [@](#): > > **Rat avatar** > “White men are bullshit” is not saying that white men are inferior nor is it codifying laws or using violence against white men purely because of the fact they are white men. Yeah, but it’s still a racist generalisation, doesn’t take much to add ‘Some white men’ > [@](#): > > **Rat avatar** > Of course I’m not surprised. It’s one thing to try to empathize with people’s lived experience, it’s impossible for an old white fart like me to truly understand what it’s like to live as a black teenager in Detroit, or a young Korean woman. I’ll try my best, and listen and try to learn. But it’s quite another to patronize people. She’s a highly intelligent Harvard graduate. I would hope her brain functions rather better than mine. I’ll debate her ideas on their merits, and criticize them when I think they are wrong. That’s understandable, but you’re doing no one any favours when you promote an ideal (Which was advocated by some white intellectuals) Of allowing one group to use overt racist generalisations over another due to a power dynamic, how is that progressive? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/212 "2018-08-07T19:59:35Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > He did, you twit. What do you think everything besides his first sentence was talking about? > **[Poisoning the well](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well)** > > Poisoning the well (or attempting to poison the well) is a type of informal fallacy where adverse information about a target is preemptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing something that the target person is about to say. Poisoning the well can be a special case of argumentum ad hominem, and the term was first used with this sense by John Henry Newman in his work Apologia Pro Vita Sua (1864). > Poisoning the well can take the form of an (explicit or impl... Educate yourself. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/213 "2018-08-07T20:11:51Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Here; > > Yeah, but it’s still a racist generalisation, doesn’t take much to add ‘Some white men’ > > That’s understandable, but you’re doing no one any favours when you promote an ideal (Which was advocated by some white intellectuals) Of allowing one group to use overt racist generalisations over another due to a power dynamic, how is that progressive? It’s a prejudiced generalization, it is hyperbolic to call it racist under non-naive understandings of the concepts. I’m not promoting the ideal, you are by expecting groups that have very valid beefs with bullshit bigoted policies to be ideal before you are willing to overlook the fault for falling short. It’s time to put on our big boy shorts, take some jabs and reach out and try to make our country equal for all. Yes we will take some heat in this case but it is condescending to say how these people should react to real, racist polices and public reactions. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/214 "2018-08-07T20:20:36Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Peterson and Hitler equated? we saw it here first. I suspect you’ve read nothing that either of them has written (or the most charitable interpretation is that you’ve _understood_ nothing that either has written) …hey everyone! We have a Peterson fanboy! No they weren’t equated. Unless you think I was equating gamegoobers and incels with Hitler as well? Why’d you snip them from your quote? ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/215 "2018-08-07T20:26:14Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Done I don’t interpret that passage in the same way you do. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/216 "2018-08-07T20:33:24Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I’m not promoting the ideal, you are by expecting groups that have very valid beefs with bullshit bigoted policies to be ideal before you are willing to overlook the fault for falling short. > > It’s time to put on our big boy shorts, take some jabs and reach out and try to make our country equal for all. Yes we will take some heat in this case but it is condescending to say how these people should react to real, racist polices and public reactions. So you accuse me of strawmanning by strawmanning yourself, brilliant. No one is asking POC to be ‘ideal’ the problem itself isn’t necessarily with Sarah Jeong, it’s the institution that she works for, who in their folly, have propagated a hypocritical stance to promote what they think is being fair, and when called out on it, have tried to blanket all criticism of their behaviour by associating **any** such criticism as being an alt right or conservative hit job. Take my example, if they had treated her the same as they treated Quinn Norton, would there be an uproar? Or would people of said NYT are enacting an equitable standard for whoever makes such posts? The root of the ire of all this is the hypocrisy of their stance. > [@](#): > > **rat avatar** > It’s a prejudiced generalization, it is hyperbolic to call it racist under non-naive understandings of the concepts. [Let me help you with that;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism#Etymology,_definition_and_usage) > [@](#): > > **Wikipedia** > Racism has multiple meanings, including the belief in the superiority of one race over another, **or discrimination and prejudice towards people based on their race or ethnicity. As of the 2000s, the use of the term “racism” does not easily fall under a single definition.** So enlighten me, how in the world do you make the case for equality by excusing racial prejudice of one group in contrast to another? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/217 "2018-08-07T20:35:46Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Of course I’m not surprised. It’s one thing to try to empathize with people’s lived experience, it’s impossible for an old white fart like me to truly understand what it’s like to live as a black teenager in Detroit, or a young Korean woman. I’ll try my best, and listen and try to learn. But it’s quite another to _patronize_ people. She’s a highly intelligent Harvard graduate. I would hope her brain functions rather better than mine. I’ll debate her ideas on their merits, and criticize them when I think they are wrong. We have no right to say how these people should react, they aren’t pets and it is just as dehumanizing to tell them so. They are people, and to call them ‘childish’ for not being polite for being screwed over is no difference then calling them a ‘boy’ or other determining ideas. POTUS and other white men who still use real racist language mean we will get some flack still, and our recourse is to reach out to people and try to move forward and not to subjugate them by calling them children for being justifiably pissed. Lots of people are better than the typical white racist coward but that is a demonstration of the great people we are missing out on due to this stupid social construct that we inherited. But my problem is that while I think your intent was good you were still treating them as inferiors. The only thing us white men have to fear is a level playground, and thus when white men rant it is in an attempt to maintain this subjugation and thus less moral than someone who may need to vent because of real valid discrimination. Us white cis men have no freaking business in telling these groups how they should react. If sub-groups start massive forced sterilization programs or start passing jim crow laws this could change but not under our current system. This doesn’t mean that I am approving of the behavior, but that compassion is needed, not scolding or coddling. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/218 "2018-08-07T20:36:11Z")
Because in one case, the discrimination is an observable evil, and in another case it is little more than an abstraction. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/219 "2018-08-07T20:47:14Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > So you accuse me of strawmanning by strawmanning yourself, brilliant. No one is asking POC to be ‘ideal’ the problem itself isn’t necessarily with Sarah Jeong, it’s the institution that she works for, who in their folly, have propagated a hypocritical stance to promote what they think is being fair, and when called out on it, have tried to blanket all criticism of their behaviour by associating **any** such criticism as being an alt right or conservative hit job. > > Take my example, if they had treated her the same as they treated Quinn Norton, would there be an uproar? Or would people of said NYT are enacting an equitable standard for whoever makes such posts? The root of the ire of all this is the hypocrisy of their stance. > > [Let me help you with that;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism#Etymology,_definition_and_usage) > So enlighten me, how in the world do you make the case for equality by excusing racial prejudice of one group in contrast to another? Ah yes…because calling for her to be fired hurts the paper right? Even though she has tempered her views as documented earlier in the thread. While noting: > **[Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a reliable source for citations elsewhere on Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_is_not_a_reliable_source)** > > Wikipedia is not a reliable source for citations elsewhere on Wikipedia. As a user-generated source, it can be edited by anyone at any time, and any information it contains at a particular time could be vandalism, a work in progress, or simply incorrect. Biographies of living persons, subjects that happen to be in the news, and politically or culturally contentious topics are especially vulnerable to these issues. Edits on Wikipedia that are in error may eventually be fixed. However, because Wi... You didn’t read down: > [@](#): > > the term “racial discrimination” shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life Please enlighten me on how these POC are performing forced sterilizations on white men or how the POTUS is using KKK dog whistles with KKK slogans like “America First” Because I can show how POC are still suffering under our system. All you have to lose is your super special I’m better status that apparently is so scary as to cause an entire political movement to elect an idiot as President. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/220 "2018-08-07T21:00:41Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The only thing us white men have to fear is a level playground Except getting attacked or their business demolished in the “wrong” neighborhood for the color of their skin. And before you reflexively say that I do that too, no one asked me permission to profile anyone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086.md?page=12)