# New York Times hires unapologetic racist writer **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 4, 2018, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086 "2018-08-04T10:58:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2018, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/561 "2018-08-12T19:13:23Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > If America is such a hopelessly white supremacist country, I wonder why she stays here instead of moving back to her native South Korea. Probably because she couldn’t play the victim over there. “If you don’t like it, go back?” You can’t say that unless you believe that this country belongs to white people and everyone else is here just at white people’s whim. She’s not going to “go back” because there’s no going back. She’s an American, and this country belongs to her, no less than it belongs to any single white person. And she gets the right to say whatever she wants in her efforts to make it, in her view, better than it is now. > [@Blalron](#): > > In group preference and outgroup hostility does seem to be part of human nature. This is a human universal. Whites are not uniquely evil in this regard. Go to the Dominican Republic and ask folks there what they think about Haitians streaming into their country and outnumbering the Dominican demographic. “Imagine” by John Lennon is a beautiful song, but humans don’t seem to be built for it. What point do you think you are you making by saying this? Fighting for equality in America is a thing we Americans have the right to do. And we get to do that regardless of what it’s like anywhere else. Yes, there are some shitty things about human nature. One of the purposes of civilization—maybe _the_ purpose—is to fight those shitty things and promote the good things. These two posts of yours basically reveal that white supremacism is at the base of your assumptions about the world. You’re part of the problem, and you need to start fixing yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/562 "2018-08-12T19:22:10Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Tell me about these spitting-in-people’s-faces incidents. Got a cite? One thing he brought up was the mainstreaming of Jeong and, of all people, _Ta-Nehsi Coates_. Seriously, I’ve heard some really fucking weird guilt by associations before, but that one’s probably a new low. **Blalron** , if you insist that you’re actually just a “concerned liberal”, maybe it would be nice if you didn’t push evidence-free right-wing bullshit. There is nobody “spitting in the face” of white voters. There are a whole lot of people who would like to take a handful of context-free incidents and _pretend_ that that’s the case, precisely because they want the reaction you’ve presented. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2018, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/563 "2018-08-12T19:27:06Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > A lot of white people don’t think of themselves as white people… unless they keep seeing a lot of messages that lead them to think white people are under attack. The Alt-Right wants white people to believe they are under attack. Sarah Jeong posted hundreds of tweets attacking white people. This feeds the narrative that white people are under attack. Whether she and other Identity Leftists are intending it or not, they are fueling a defensive reaction. Thinking that Jeong’s style of communicating is going to effectively combat racism is like trying to stop a fire by pouring gasoline on it. It not only fails that purpose, it’s counterproductive. Very well said, and it is exacerbated by demographic change. I recall reading a political science research finding that the states where whites are most likely to vote Republican are those where the percentage of African Americans is highest. Thus Mississippi can be overwhelmingly red even though it has a huge black population. If we don’t manage this transition carefully, the same could happen in the country as a whole, which would be a disaster. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Nope I simply just wanted a term you would accept for the meaning I wanted to convey and you kept trying to deny that to maintain your bigiotry. I even offered to be given a word that would be accepted but that was ignored because without the word games the argument would fall. No, this never happened. You are, again, confusing me with another poster or just outright peddling falsehoods. You still think these are accurate characterizations of anything I said? Then cite the quotes from my posts. Put up or shut the fuck up. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Remember we had official apartheid in this country until 1971 I’ve never seen this date used (as opposed to 1964, 1965, or 1967). Care to explain? > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Why should we care about your inability to take criticism while evil is being propagated against our fellow human beings so that you can maintain some bullshit idea that being ‘white’ is anything outside of a concept of the mind that helps justify these evil actions against our fellow Americans. :dubious: If being “white” is all in someone’s mind, why don’t POC end racism by just mentally positioning themselves white also, thus negating any possibility of racial discrimination? > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Did you miss the blatant white nationalism being pushed by Fox News? > > Laura Ingraham has quit doing the dog whistles and is directly advocating for white nationalism. Who are you addressing this to? I don’t think anyone missed that. And it’s certainly a duious stance, to oppose immigration and demographic change in a country where white people (if you now accept they exist? You’re hard to keep track of) stole the land from nonwhite native peoples only a few generations ago. Which is not, however, to say there should be open borders or no standards at all for immigration. In a country like France, Norway, or Japan, it is a much more tenable position IMO to oppose virtually all immigration and demographic change. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Sounds like a good reason to make _private_ collages and vouchers illegal if you have a problem with private schools teaching their beliefs. /sarcasm > > There is a lot of hate coming out of Liberty University and BYU, so I assume you agree on shutting them down too right? Occasionally you do make a good point. (And BTW, I would certainly be in favor of their losing any benefit they get from the federal government, such as subsidized student loans.) > [@k9bfriender](#): > > She was trolled into making those remarks, and has apologized and agreed that they were unwise. Were it not for right wing trolls continuing to bring it up over and over, then no one would even know of these remarks. > > Is there anything ever wrong with the way that the alt-right communicates its message? They attack a person, the person attacks back, then they use the response to their attack as propaganda to try to get people like yourself on their side. This is all true, but the smart response to these tactics is to stop giving them ammunition, rather than impotently whining that they are being unfair meanies or doubling down on the maligning of white people. And I’ve seen plenty of examples of people on Twitter talking shit about straight white men (as an undifferentiated group) without it being a response to an attack. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2018, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/564 "2018-08-12T19:27:11Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Tell me about these spitting-in-people’s-faces incidents. Got a cite? One thing he brought up was the mainstreaming of Jeong and, of all people, _Ta-Nehsi Coates_. Seriously, I’ve heard some really fucking weird guilt by associations before, but that one’s probably a new low. **Blalron** , if you insist that you’re actually just a “concerned liberal”, maybe it would be nice if you didn’t push evidence-free right-wing bullshit. There is nobody “spitting in the face” of white voters. There are a whole lot of people who would like to take a handful of context-free incidents and _pretend_ that that’s the case, precisely because they want the reaction you’ve presented. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2018, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/565 "2018-08-12T19:34:54Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > One thing he brought up was the mainstreaming of Jeong and, of all people, _Ta-Nehsi Coates_. > > Seriously, I’ve heard some really fucking weird guilt by associations before, but that one’s probably a new low. Why does TNC rate this “of all people” verbiage? I’m honestly perplexed by this. Even if you love him, do you seriously not pick up that he is constantly positing that the U.S. is a bullshit country not only founded on white supremacy, but which will be fundamentally based on white supremacy for as long as any of us are alive, and then some? Or do you not see that as an inflammatory message? I’m genuinely puzzled by this reaction. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2018, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/566 "2018-08-12T19:40:05Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > That’s disingenious, not all White people bully POC, and I’ve read many of her tweets, alot of them are just frustrations wrapped in racist jokes, not alot of bullying going on there. It would be disingenuous for you to make the assumption that I am talking about all white people, when I specifically was talking about the people attacking her. My point is that you are taking the bully’s side, not that everyone is a bully. > [@](#): > > Great, you disagree, that’s why we’re debating these issues. Sure. So demonstrate that there is a general discourse that has a binding effect on the actions that companies take. > [@](#): > > That leader was referencing the previous meeting in regards to the word spoken, but you are highlighting my point, he was fired for using language in reference to a meeting of how hurtful it could be, Right, and in that meeting, showing that he was completely oblivious to how hurtful that word could be by using it. > [@](#): > > where as Jeong keeps her job, despite making racist jokes. So because he’s white, he didn’t get let off the hook, he was fired, where Jeong, because she is a POC was allowed to keep her job, that’s why people are angry about this, and I don’t understand why I have to keep repeating this to you to make you understand. Because I don’t agree with your conclusions. You can keep repeating your conclusion, all that crap you wrote after “so”, but that doesn’t make it any better or convincing. I understand what you are saying, I just don’t agree with it. > [@](#): > > Threatening what? I’m trying to explain to you that you might justify all these imbalances all you want, but don’t be surprised when people get angry about them and call people like you out on it. You just stated exactly what the threat was. You even personalized it from being upset with people who react to racist attacks with unwise language to people who try to put that into context for you. Not just a threat to her, but to anyone who would associate with her, anyone that would dare to consider her side of the story. > [@](#): > > I don’t justify Rosanne Barrs behaviour, but my including of her as an example is that she was fired within hours of making a racist joke about Valerie Justice, and was just one of a line of examples I’ve made to highlight the general discourse in the last twelve months. What did Valerie say to Rosanne to justify Rosanne’s tweet? > [@](#): > > Nope, I’ve not said they shouldn’t of fired him, I said why isn’t Jeong held to the same standard that other organisations which have had similar PR gaffes in respects to race. Right, you’ve asked and asked and asked why two people who worked for two different companies, in two completely different industries, who did entirely different things were not treated exactly the same. That you haven’t gotten an answer that you like doesn’t mean that that question was not answered pretty fully several times now. > [@](#): > > Erm, Friedland was doing a course about hurtful language and said the N-word as an example, he apologised for it, and employees felt he hadn’t been taking it seriously enough weeks after as he didn’t mention the incident again, so was reported to HR, where he said it in the meeting, and then they booted him out. So again, if they want to fire him fine, but it just adds fuel to the fire of where situations like Jeong crops up, and nothing happens. You are talking about a leader of a company. A person who makes decisions on the direction of the company, what types of shows that will be produced, what talents to hire, what talents to let go. If his judgement is suspect, he does need to go, otherwise, they open themselves up for massive lawsuits if someone feels that they were discriminated against by this person who has shown remarkably poor judgement. Are you not at all capable of seeing the difference in character that is needed to run a company, vs be an employee? Do you not see that there is a higher standard for a CEO than a writer? Once again, your conclusions after your “so” are completely unsubstantiated. > [@](#): > > So if she wrote an apology, but in her heart didn’t really mean it, that would be ok? Depends on how you manage to read her mind. I have heard that conservatives are excellent mind readers, so I am sure that you can tell us what she was thinking and what was in her heart when she wrote an apology. Short of that, your question is utterly stupid. > [@](#): > > Need I remind you she got fired within hours of getting the position at NYT, and she wasn’t even given the benefit of the doubt in respects to context like Jeong did. Again, the double standard of which people were highly irritated by. It is, once again, only a double standard if you insist that two different things must be the same. The way this conversation is going can be summed up as: “I don’t like oranges that are red.” “I just saw you eat that apple, and it was red, you are a hypocrite.” > [@](#): > > If you even bothered to read her tweets in question, she used racial jokes to reference debates or articles or conversations with people who happened to be white, and mocked them accordingly. Stop excusing her actions, she has agency like anyone else. Stop excusing her current actions, or forgive her for the actions that she has done in the past, apologized for, and stopped doing? > [@](#): > > In the italics, no, that’s not what happened, the NYT reviewed her tweets, still gave her the job, and then when there was a public furore, only then did NYT issue a statement standing by her, and only then did Jeong apologise, so again, I ask you, what is it do you not understand about public anger at the double standards imposed at NYT that you fail to grasp. Why people would be angry about something that doesn’t affect them in the slightest, and that is entirely made of ginned up anger by the people who don’t want to see minorities get a voice. Not saying that you are one of these people, just that you are doing their work for them. They won’t thank you, BTW. > [@](#): > > [Sarah Jeong Joins The Times’s Editorial Board | The New York Times Company](https://www.nytco.com/sarah-jeong-joins-the-timess-editorial-board/) 1st August > > [https://twitter.com/NYTimesPR?ref\_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1025048766825549830&ref\_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fworld-us-canada-45052534](https://twitter.com/NYTimesPR?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1025048766825549830&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fworld-us-canada-45052534) > > 2nd August Was there a particular tweet you wanted me to see, or are you just linking to NYT’s com director for no good reason. And sure, your second link is about her joining the NYT. What about that cite were you thinking was relevant? > [@](#): > > So by that analysis the only perceivable justice is to allow POC to make racist jokes and give them the space to do that, because they may not be able to articulate their frustrations in an appropiate manner? Holy Strawman Batman! That would only make sense if you were completely incapable of reading, but you obviously are capable of reading, so you must just be trolling. > [@](#): > > Oh you do, so if you’re so fair minded and willing to give people the benefit of the doubt, why are you so ready to jump to conclusions that I must be the on some mission to put minorities in their place and hate their ‘uppityness’? Because you are complaining about minorities not knowing their place and reacting to violent racist language directed at them with satirical yet racially charged language directed back. You are continue to complain about it, even after they have apologized and promised to stop. It is your actions alone that I can judge you by, your words on this board. And your words on this board indicate that you do not appreciate that minorities don’t just take violent racist attacks with a grin and a compliment to their attacker. > [@](#): > > Again, if you had bothered to read my posts, my problem primarily isn’t with Jeong, she is just a symbol of the kind of hypocrisy which being promoted by various organisations, who have the best intentions of trying to be fair, howeve when they get caught out, like NYT did, rather than listening to the criticism, they doubled down on their justification of keeping her and alleged that anyone who was against Jeong to be part of the alt-right. Hence my anger, and alot of other peoples anger. I get your anger. You saw poor white people face responsibility for their actions, and you want to make sure that there is no possibility that a minority gets away with anything that any white person may have been sanctioned for. I get it, I really do. You don’t care that there are plenty of white people who have done or said things far worse than even the white examples that we have been talking about who have kept their jobs. You don’t care that there are white people who not only said far worse things than Jeong but said them to her for the specific purpose of provoking a reaction who keep their jobs. You just care that there were some white people who were called out for their harmful actions and that they got sanctioned for it, so you want to make sure that any minority that does anything at all similar to what these people did gets no less than the fullest punishment that can be doled out. So yeah, I do get your anger. I just think being angry over it is dumb at best, in that it takes a certain level of maintaining ignorance to get angry over this. Of course, in the not so unlikely case that the ignorance is not involuntary, my opinion of the justification of your anger goes down precipitously. > [@](#): > > As I’ve mentioned, if you bothered to read the tweets which were offensive in question, and there were lots of them, alot of them were her just making jokes about white people in reference to the everyday banalities of her life, not necessarily bullying. I didn’t say that they were about bullying, I said that they were a reaction to being bullied. > [@](#): > > Tell that to Quinn Norton. Send me her email addy. > [@](#): > > I love the way in which a question is deliberately set up to trap me and call me a liar, and no, she can write as much as she wants, and I’ll happily read it, I’m calling for a little consistency in NYT’s hiring and firing methods, that’s all. Nice that you love that, but you’re the one that set up the question. I asked no question, but you categorically said that you disagreed with all of that. I lay out all the things that you categorically disagreed with, and ask individually if you meant to disagree with them. That you would call an attempt at clarifying your categorical disagreement a trap to call you a liar is more than a bit of disingenuousness on your part. > [@](#): > > No it’s not Yeah, it really is. > [@](#): > > So because Andrew Sullivan brought it to attention, it invalidates all criticism of such behaviour, got it. Did I say that? Nope. However, the point that Sullivan is the one who made a point of publicizing it should at the very least give you a reason to check into the story a bit, make sure that you aren’t just taking his word for it. You have done nothing in this thread but repeat his talking points, showing not a single iota of independent thought. Try thinking for yourself, or at least, stop letting racists do your thinking for you. > [@](#): > > Didn’t know BBC News was now alt right, thanks. You’re also implying I have no agency of my own? When do you take off your ideological glasses? Why would the BBC be alt right because they report on a story about the alt-right? Does that mean that if they report on a terrorist, they are terrorists? I have no idea what sort of agency you have, but as far as this topic, the right wing trolls wanted to make a bunch of fragile white guys angry, and they have succeeded in making you angry. Whatever agency you have is in the service of alt right. I don’t know if they have fooled you into doing their work, or if you choose to do it, but there is no question that you are advancing their agenda. > [@](#): > > So by that definition Jeong was **maligning** the majority, but that’s ok right? All things being the same, which is what I was getting at. Man, these poor strawmen. Who said that it was “ok right”? Forgivable and understandable that someone would react to violent racists trolls with unwise words of their own? Yeah. OK? No, she should not do that anymore. I don’t understand why you have such a difficult time understanding this. > [@](#): > > No they’re not, which is exactly my point, either both of them should be in a job, or neither of them. So, you demand that, even though you agree that the situations were drastically different, that they should be treated the same. > [@](#): > > So again… > > Quinn Norton got fired for her tweets without being allowed to explain in context the reasoning behind it, Jeong got hired by the NYT and then apologised after the fact and justified it in part due to attacks from trolls on twitter, even though if you did your research, alot of her tweets were just her sounding off in regards to either some study or dialogue she was having within her social circle. If Jeong was associating with white nationalists and slurring gay people, then I would probably have less sympathy for her. As it was not Jeong, but Quinn, who was doing this, I cannot hold it against her. > [@](#): > > Threatening is counterproductive, as well as you being assumptive. Well, I agree that threats are counter productive, but what is your point in declaring many times in this post about how angry you and your fellow angronauts are, except to indicate that you may do something with and about that anger? Final question, you say that you don’t believe that there is any difference between punching up and punching down, right? That it is just as bad for an oppressed population to criticize their oppressors as it is for the oppressors to criticize those they oppress? From what you have been arguing, I would “presume” to say that your answer here is yes, that a suppression of the oppressed is just as justified as an uprising of the oppressed, but you are welcome to explain how you would come to a different answer, while still feeling that the privileged majority should be coddled and defended from anything that may make them uncomfortable, no matter how much discomfort you have to give to the minorities to get them to shut up. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2018, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/567 "2018-08-12T19:48:04Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Why does TNC rate this “of all people” verbiage? I’m honestly perplexed by this. Even if you love him, do you seriously not pick up that he is constantly positing that the U.S. is a bullshit country not only founded on white supremacy, but which will be fundamentally based on white supremacy for as long as any of us are alive, and then some? Or do you not see that as an inflammatory message? I’m genuinely puzzled by this reaction. Because Coates is an almost universally respected intellectual and author? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2018, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/568 "2018-08-12T19:52:59Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > :dubious: If being “white” is all in someone’s mind, why don’t POC end racism by just mentally positioning themselves white also, thus negating any possibility of racial discrimination? That’s a remarkably stupid question. You do realize that it is the racists who would have to be convinced of that, not the victims of racism, right? That’s like the whole “If I can’t see them, they can’t see me.” so you turn your back motif. Sure, if we could get the racists to see everyone as white, then racism would end. You have any ideas for that? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2018, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/569 "2018-08-12T20:04:14Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Why does TNC rate this “of all people” verbiage? I’m honestly perplexed by this. Even if you love him, do you seriously not pick up that he is constantly positing that the U.S. is a bullshit country not only founded on white supremacy, but which will be fundamentally based on white supremacy for as long as any of us are alive, and then some? Or do you not see that as an inflammatory message? I’m genuinely puzzled by this reaction. Because this is an inaccurate interpretation of Coates’ writing. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2018, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/570 "2018-08-12T20:55:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Because this is an inaccurate interpretation of Coates’ writing. ORLY? Jon Chait, my favorite political editorialist, quoted TNC as follows: > **[Barack Obama vs. the Culture of Poverty](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2014/03/barack-obama-vs-the-culture-of-poverty.html)** > > A debate with Ta-Nehisi Coates. > [@](#): > > America has rarely been our ally. Very often it has been our nemesis. … > I view white supremacy as one of the central organizing forces in American life, whose vestiges and practices afflicted black people in the past, continue to afflict black people today, and will likely afflict black people until this country passes into thedust. Chait responded to this as follows, and I cosign every word: > [@](#): > > I have never previously detected this level of pessimism in Coates’s thinking before. It is also deeply at odds with the hard evidence. It is hard to explain how the United States has progressed from chattel slavery to emancipation to the end of lynching to the end of legal segregation to electing an African-American president if America has “rarely” been the ally of African-Americans and “often” its nemesis. It is one thing to notice the persistence of racism, quite another to interpret the history of black America as mainly one of continuity rather than mainly one ofprogress. > > _Photo caption: “1957: Caucasian National Guardsmen give an African-American student and his bicycle a lift to school while enforcing desegregation at Central High School in Little Rock, Arkansas. A cameraman and a crowd watch from the sidewalk. Photo: Paul Slade/Hulton Archive/Getty Images”_ > > This is also Barack Obama’s story about America. Unlike the tea party story, it does not imagine a union born of perfection and corrupted over time. It instead it describes a country whose soaring ideals sat uncomfortably aside an often cruel reality, but which — fitfully, slowly, as-yet-imperfectly, but inexorably — has bent the latter into closer conformity with the former. It is not surprising that black and Hispanic Americans report higher levels of optimism regarding the future than whiteAmericans. > > Coates is obviously entitled to a different view (and he’s entitled to change his mind). But I think he is ignoring a cleavage than runs far deeper than the propriety of Obama urging black youths to study hard. Coates invokes Obama’s role as “the titular representative of his country’s heritage and legacy.” Given the vast gulf between the historical optimism shared by the president and his most loyal constituents, on the one hand, and the grim fatalism to which Coates is now turning, I can’t imagine what representation Obama could possibly offer that would not disturbhim. So you really don’t see anything controversial about TNC’s rhetoric? Ask yourself this: if he were the Democratic nominee for president against a “normal” Republican like Romney or McCain, and he continued to say these things, how would he do? If you don’t think he’d be wiped out by double digits (maybe by twenty or thirty points), I think you’re in a serious bubble (and I’d note that the HBO “High Maintenance” episode that spoofed liberal bubbles used a TNC book to illustrate one). > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Sure, if we could get the racists to see everyone as white, then racism would end. You have any ideas for that? So…being white is not really a thing, it’s just in white people’s minds. But they can tell who else is white (people who are biologically born to white parents) upon first meeting, and a black person without much white ancestry can’t “pass” for white no matter how much they change their hair, clothing style, and speech patterns (absent plastic surgery and/or professionally applied makeup like on that Eddie Murphy sketch). This somehow makes sense to you? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2018, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/571 "2018-08-12T21:02:19Z")
Not sure why the last two words of each quoted paragraph got smushed together, but I missed the edit window. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2018, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/572 "2018-08-12T21:37:18Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > ORLY? Jon Chait, my favorite political editorialist, quoted TNC as follows: > > [Barack Obama vs. the Culture of Poverty](http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/03/barack-obama-vs-the-culture-of-poverty.html) > > So you really don’t see anything controversial about TNC’s rhetoric? Well, others **do see it as controversial** indeed, but not in the way you or Chait sees it. [https://www.thenation.com/article/function-black-rage/](https://www.thenation.com/article/function-black-rage/) [QUOTE=By Mychal Denzel SmithTwitter April 1, 2014 ] Our impatience and rage is what has produced progress. That we are still impatient and angry reflects not black people’s failing but how far America still has to go. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > When the tête-à-tête between Ta-Nehisi Coates and Jonathan Chait over black culture, the “culture of poverty,” President Obama, Paul Ryan and American racism started, it was somewhat fascinating, but has become what Tressie McMillan Cottom described as “a nasty piece of cornbread.” It has left a rotten taste in my mouth. That’s mostly because, as congenial as the two have been toward one another, I detect in Chait’s argument one of my greatest pet peeves: a white person attempting to talk a black person down from their justifiable rage. > [@](#): > > What a luxury it must be to define the history of racism in America through the lens of progress. > > He goes on: > > > [@Jon Chait](#): > > > > Coates associates himself with a quote from Malcolm X: “You don’t stick a knife in a man’s back nine inches, and then pull it out six inches and say you’re making progress.” The analogy defines out of existence the very possibility of steady progress. People who subscribe to this way of thinking won’t agree with measures that reduce but fail to eliminate racial discrimination, or those that reduce but fail to eliminate poverty, or reduce but fail to eliminate medical deprivation. I have written before, for instance, about how slavery continues to poison white minds in ways white people are often unaware of. One can believe in the continued existence of racism and still think that the scale of the evil has fallen enormously since the 19th century. > > You don’t get to define progress in a struggle that is not your own. It’s really that simple. You inevitably bring to that analysis an outsider’s perspective, and from that vantage point, progress of any measure looks astounding. It’s particularly awe-inspiring if it allows you to feel less implicated in the reason for that struggle. But that’s what we call privilege: the ability to observe “improvement” because you’re not experiencing the ever present oppression. It clouds your judgment. It deludes you into believing you have the authority of objectivity. It breeds self-righteousness. It impedes true progress. > > This doesn’t preclude Chait, or other white people, from having an opinion on the state of racism in America. But it must be understood that their whiteness, and therefore distance from the lived experience of racism, affords them much rosier view of what constitutes progress. > [@](#): > > We continue to be asked to stop. We continue to be told we’ve won enough. > > Emancipation was supposed to be enough. “Separate but equal” was supposed to be enough. Brown v. Board of Education was supposed to be enough. The Civil Rights/Voting Acts were supposed to be enough. Affirmative action was supposed to be enough. A black president is supposed to be enough. Yet, here we are, facing mass incarceration, food insecurity, chronic unemployment, the erosion of the social safety net, income inequality, housing discrimination, police brutality and the seemingly unending deaths of our young people at the hands of police and armed vigilantes. Pardon the “profound gloom.” > > What some call depression or pessimism, I would call impatience and rage. Our impatience and rage is what has produced progress. That we are still impatient and angry reflects not black people’s failing but how far America still has to go. > > My question/challenge to white people who claim to be on the side of equality and justice: when will you get just as angry that these things have been done in your name? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2018, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/573 "2018-08-12T21:37:52Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > positing that the U.S. is a bullshit country not only **founded on white supremacy** , but which will be **fundamentally based on white supremacy for as long as any of us are alive** , and then some? …I don’t know enough about TNC to know whether or not your paraphrase is accurate. But do you honestly think the parts I’ve bolded are inflammatory? Do those statements make you angry? If so, then why? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2018, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/574 "2018-08-12T21:38:49Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > So…being white is not really a thing, it’s just in white people’s minds. But they can tell who else is white (people who are biologically born to white parents) upon first meeting, and a black person without much white ancestry can’t “pass” for white no matter how much they change their hair, clothing style, and speech patterns (absent plastic surgery and/or professionally applied makeup like on that Eddie Murphy sketch). This somehow makes sense to you? Your complete maligning of what is a pretty straightforward point makes no sense to me, nor why you would got to such mental gymnastics to try. Do you not get that racists are not as enlightened as you seem to think that they are, and they are not looking at the content of one’s mind, but only at the color of their skin? Are you actually blind and not able to see that there are people out there with different skin colors? Do you think that racists are blind, and cannot see that people have different skin colors? Don’t try to presume this time, no “So,… along with whatever erroneous conclusion that you have come up with.” Yes or no, do people that racists consider to be white have any obvious physical characteristics that differentiate them from the people that racists consider to be black? > [@](#): > > This is all true, but the smart response to these tactics is to stop giving them ammunition, rather than impotently whining that they are being unfair meanies or doubling down on the maligning of white people. Which is why she stopped giving them ammunition when it was brought to her attention that she what she was doing did have some downsides. So, the smart response is exactly what the response was. What is your criticism here again? > [@](#): > > And I’ve seen plenty of examples of people on Twitter talking shit about straight white men (as an undifferentiated group) without it being a response to an attack. Oh, plenty of people? Any of those people Jeong, or is she responsible for what everyone on twitter does as well? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2018, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/575 "2018-08-12T21:50:24Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > ORLY? Jon Chait, my favorite political editorialist, quoted TNC as follows: > > [Barack Obama vs. the Culture of Poverty](http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/03/barack-obama-vs-the-culture-of-poverty.html) > > Chait responded to this as follows, and I cosign every word: So what? That’s not what you said. That’s a reasonable assertion from Coates about American history – for most of our history, black people in America had very good reason to hate and fear both the apparatus of the American state and American society, for which white supremacism formed a very large part of the basis. And, especially considering the last couple of years, skepticism about great progress and entirely overcoming white supremacism seems entirely reasonable to me. Those things are not the same as what you said. > [@](#): > > So you really don’t see anything controversial about TNC’s rhetoric? Of course much of his rhetoric is controversial – extremely so. So was abolition in the mid 19th century. I’ve never disputed that many of his opinions are controversial. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2018, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/576 "2018-08-12T22:35:41Z")
You know, Andy, I actually held out some hope that you would be less disingenuous than this—god knows why, given your past postings. Somehow I thought you might actually respond along the lines of “Okay, fine: I hadn’t seen this quote, so I take it back about your not characterizing his writing fairly, although even Chait was surprised by it so I think it’s fair to note that it isn’t representative of his earlier work. And I understand why he feels this way…” Etc. Instead, you are still stubbornly insisting that this: > [@](#): > > [Coates has said] the U.S. is a bullshit country not only founded on white supremacy, but which will be fundamentally based on white supremacy for as long as any of us are alive, and then some is not a fair reading of this: > [@](#): > > America has rarely been our ally. Very often it has been our nemesis. … > I view white supremacy as one of the central organizing forces in American life, whose vestiges and practices afflicted black people in the past, continue to afflict black people today, and will likely afflict black people until this country passes into thedust. C’mon, man. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2018, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/577 "2018-08-12T22:42:53Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > You know, Andy, I actually held out some hope that you would be less disingenuous than this—god knows why, given your past postings. Somehow I thought you might actually respond along the lines of “Okay, fine: I hadn’t seen this quote, so I take it back about your not characterizing his writing fairly, although even Chait was surprised by it so I think it’s fair to note that it isn’t representative of his earlier work. And I understand why he feels this way…” Etc. > > Instead, you are still stubbornly insisting that this: > > is not a fair reading of this: > > C’mon, man. No, you are the one that has to see how silly is to deny what minorities had to experience then and now. As Mychal Denzel Smith said to Chait too: "We continue to be asked to stop. We continue to be told we’ve won enough. Emancipation was supposed to be enough. “Separate but equal” was supposed to be enough. Brown v. Board of Education was supposed to be enough. The Civil Rights/Voting Acts were supposed to be enough. Affirmative action was supposed to be enough. A black president is supposed to be enough. Yet, here we are, facing mass incarceration, food insecurity, chronic unemployment, the erosion of the social safety net, income inequality, housing discrimination, police brutality and the seemingly unending deaths of our young people at the hands of police and armed vigilantes. Pardon the “profound gloom.” What some call depression or pessimism, I would call impatience and rage. Our impatience and rage is what has produced progress. That we are still impatient and angry reflects not black people’s failing but how far America still has to go. My question/challenge to white people who claim to be on the side of equality and justice: when will you get just as angry that these things have been done in your name?" ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2018, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/578 "2018-08-12T22:47:56Z")
That’s just the way liberals are, always insisting that there can’t be any progress without change. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2018, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/579 "2018-08-12T23:17:54Z")
> [@](#): > > **k9bfriender** > It would be disingenuous for you to make the assumption that I am talking about all white people, when I specifically was talking about the people attacking her. > > My point is that you are taking the bully’s side, not that everyone is a bully. Just because the people bullying her doesn’t make the issue with her tweets wrong, nor does it mean I’m taking their side. That kind of nuance seems lost on you. > [@](#): > > Sure. So demonstrate that there is a general discourse that has a binding effect on the actions that companies take. If a white person had done the same thing as Jeong in the situation she was in, they would be out on their ass in no time, we know it I know it, it happened in February to Quinn Norton. Show me that isn’t the general discourse instead of saying the equivalent of ‘Nuh uh!’ > [@](#): > > Right, and in that meeting, showing that he was completely oblivious to how hurtful that word could be by using it. He apologised to the people who called him out on it, and mentioned the word again in a private meeting with HR in relation to the original incident, and was still fired. > [@](#): > > Because I don’t agree with your conclusions. You can keep repeating your conclusion, all that crap you wrote after “so”, but that doesn’t make it any better or convincing. I understand what you are saying, I just don’t agree with it. And I don’t agree with your conclusions, because I’ve demonstrated numerous times how hypocritical they are. > [@](#): > > You just stated exactly what the threat was. You even personalized it from being upset with people who react to racist attacks with unwise language to people who try to put that into context for you. Not just a threat to her, but to anyone who would associate with her, anyone that would dare to consider her side of the story. Being angry isn’t a threat, it’s an emotional reaction to something that’s hurtful, unless you consider when POC are racially abused and protest about that, that is also a threat, would a POC care about context? I have considered her side of the story, she said racist jokes in her tweets, got a job at NYT, tweets were discovered, then there was outrage, she backtracked and apologised and said it was only in because the alt right were trolling her, NYT defended her actions and that’s it. > [@](#): > > What did Valerie say to Rosanne to justify Rosanne’s tweet? I’ll quote myself again since you didn’t get it _I don’t justify Rosanne Barrs behaviour_ > [@](#): > > Right, you’ve asked and asked and asked why two people who worked for two different companies, in two completely different industries, who did entirely different things were not treated exactly the same. NYT and Netflix, get this, operate in this thing called the _media industry_, they are viewed by the public on a consistent basis. They will be influenced by how other media companies react to such incidents and set the benchmark > [@](#): > > That you haven’t gotten an answer that you like doesn’t mean that that question was not answered pretty fully several times now. So why do you keep coming back to it if you’re so confident you’ve already explained it. Why feel the need to constantly shore up your opinion. > [@](#): > > You are talking about a leader of a company. A person who makes decisions on the direction of the company, what types of shows that will be produced, what talents to hire, what talents to let go. If his judgement is suspect, he does need to go, otherwise, they open themselves up for massive lawsuits if someone feels that they were discriminated against by this person who has shown remarkably poor judgement. > > Are you not at all capable of seeing the difference in character that is needed to run a company, vs be an employee? Do you not see that there is a higher standard for a CEO than a writer? > > Once again, your conclusions after your “so” are completely unsubstantiated. Jeong is going to an editor of NYT, she will write articles and contribute opinions to people who read the newspaper, which is pretty much an institution and respected newspaper in the US, so from what you’re saying she gets a pass even though by your own standards she would need to go as her own judgement is seen as ‘suspect’ Btw Jonathan Friedland didn’t run Netflix, again, I implore you, bother to do some research. > [@](#): > > Depends on how you manage to read her mind. I have heard that conservatives are excellent mind readers, so I am sure that you can tell us what she was thinking and what was in her heart when she wrote an apology. > > Short of that, your question is utterly stupid. You’re a hypocrite. You’ve attempted to mind read to me and decided upon yourself that I feel Jeong is ‘Uppity’ and ‘Needs to be in her place’ I’m not a conservative you dipshit. > [@](#): > > It is, once again, only a double standard if you insist that two different things must be the same. > > The way this conversation is going can be summed up as: > “I don’t like oranges that are red.” > “I just saw you eat that apple, and it was red, you are a hypocrite.” They’re not different things, they were both accused of being racist, one got fired, the other kept her job. > [@](#): > > Stop excusing her **current** actions, or forgive her for the actions that she has done in the past, apologized for, and stopped doing? I didn’t say **current** actions, I said her previous actions that she had apologised for. 😃 > [@](#): > > Why people would be angry about something that doesn’t affect them in the slightest, and that is entirely made of ginned up anger by the people who don’t want to see minorities get a voice. > > Not saying that you are one of these people, just that you are doing their work for them. They won’t thank you, BTW. Ah right, I lack agency, to raise an objection to the NYT being hypocritical, I must have been influenced by the alt-right, that’s all you’ve got as a counterpoint. > [@](#): > > Was there a particular tweet you wanted me to see, or are you just linking to NYT’s com director for no good reason. > > And sure, your second link is about her joining the NYT. What about that cite were you thinking was relevant? Yeah, how you don’t bother to research your points properly, don’t worry I’ll do the work for you, since you can’t be bothered. Exhibit 1: > [@](#): > > Jeong responded to racist and misogynistic attacks against her with insults that matched the nature of attacks she received. She realized that that was a mistake, apologized, and vowed to no longer do that. \*\*Later, she was offered a job at the NYT. \*\* In bold, no, that’s not what happened, the NYT reviewed her tweets, still gave her the job, and then when there was a public furore, only then did NYT issue a statement standing by her, and only then did Jeong apologise, so again, I ask you, what is it do you not understand about public anger at the double standards imposed at NYT that you fail to grasp. > [@](#): > > Holy Strawman Batman! > > That would only make sense if you were completely incapable of reading, but you obviously are capable of reading, so you must just be trolling. That’s literally out of seminar on [White fragility](https://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/white-people-freak-theyre-called-race-hesaid/); “In the course of my work, I’ve had many people of color give me feedback in ways that might be perceived as intense or emotional or angry. And on one level, it’s personal—I did do that thing that triggered the response, but at the same time it isn’t only personal. I represent a lifetime of people that have hurt them in the same way that I just did.” > [@](#): > > Because you are complaining about minorities not knowing their place and reacting to violent racist language directed at them with satirical yet racially charged language directed back. You are continue to complain about it, even after they have apologized and promised to stop. Again, as I’ve said in this thread numerous times moron, she isn’t the main issue here, the main issue is the NYT hypocritical standards when it comes to firing people based off racism. > [@](#): > > It is your actions alone that I can judge you by, your words on this board. And your words on this board indicate that you do not appreciate that minorities don’t just take violent racist attacks with a grin and a compliment to their attacker. So if you’re going to white knight for POC, do so by at least bothering to read what I write. > [@](#): > > I get your anger. You saw poor white people face responsibility for their actions, and you want to make sure that there is no possibility that a minority gets away with anything that any white person may have been sanctioned for. I get it, I really do. You don’t care that there are plenty of white people who have done or said things far worse than even the white examples that we have been talking about who have kept their jobs. You don’t care that there are white people who not only said far worse things than Jeong but said them to her for the specific purpose of provoking a reaction who keep their jobs. You just care that there were some white people who were called out for their harmful actions and that they got sanctioned for it, so you want to make sure that any minority that does anything at all similar to what these people did gets no less than the fullest punishment that can be doled out. Do you even bother to read my posts, or do you go straight to white knighting as soon as I reply back? As I’ve said before, and I’ll repeat again, Jeong isn’t the issue, I’m not bothered too much about her casual racism, as I am about the NYTs stance towards the issue in general, they’re hypocrites, and this double standard will have longer term effects on race relations which could have a larger impact than any of her tweets have made. > [@](#): > > So yeah, I do get your anger. I just think being angry over it is dumb at best, in that it takes a certain level of maintaining ignorance to get angry over this. Of course, in the not so unlikely case that the ignorance is not involuntary, my opinion of the justification of your anger goes down precipitously. No you don’t, you went straight for the boring tired old ‘He must be alt right/convervative’ BS, you even said I MUST of received the information from Andrew Sullivan when I got it from the BBC. Speaking of maintaining ignorance, is that the reason why you ignored my linking of the tweets in respects to her being hired after NYT knew about her tweets, and feigned ignorance as to why I would link those websites of when she joined and her press and NYT’s press statement? > [@](#): > > I didn’t say that they were about bullying, I said that they were a reaction to being bullied. But as I said, if you bothered to do any research, you’d realise they weren’t all her being bullied, alot of it was just casual racism. > [@](#): > > Send me her email addy. Go get it yourself. Don’t be lazy like you are in your research. > [@](#): > > Nice that you love that, but you’re the one that set up the question. I asked no question, but you categorically said that you disagreed with all of that. I lay out all the things that you categorically disagreed with, and ask individually if you meant to disagree with them. > > That you would call an attempt at clarifying your categorical disagreement a trap to call you a liar is more than a bit of disingenuousness on your part. But it was a trap, I’m obviously not what you’re saying. Btw, \*she can write as much as she wants, and I’ll happily read it, I’m calling for a little consistency in NYT’s hiring and firing methods, that’s all. \* Forgot to address that part didn’t you? And you call me disingenous lol. > [@](#): > > Yeah, it really is. No it isn’t. > [@](#): > > Did I say that? Nope. However, the point that Sullivan is the one who made a point of publicizing it should at the very least give you a reason to check into the story a bit, make sure that you aren’t just taking his word for it. > > You have done nothing in this thread but repeat his talking points, showing not a single iota of independent thought. Try thinking for yourself, or at least, stop letting racists do your thinking for you. I did check into the story, she still made racist jokes and was a casual racist. > [@](#): > > Why would the BBC be alt right because they report on a story about the alt-right? Does that mean that if they report on a terrorist, they are terrorists? The didn’t report on the alt right, they reported on Jeong and the NYT Knock yourself out here’s the link (Again, doing the research for you) > **[Sarah Jeong: NY Times stands by 'racist tweets' reporter](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45052534)** > > The newspaper said Sarah Jeong regrets her remarks and she had been responding to online abuse. > [@](#): > > I have no idea what sort of agency you have, but as far as this topic, the right wing trolls wanted to make a bunch of fragile white guys angry, and they have succeeded in making you angry. Whatever agency you have is in the service of alt right. I don’t know if they have fooled you into doing their work, or if you choose to do it, but there is no question that you are advancing their agenda Yup something something alt right, something something conservative trope. Boring. Here’s a thought, ask yourself when her casual racism would not be acceptable. > [@](#): > > Man, these poor strawmen. Who said that it was “ok right”? Forgivable and understandable that someone would react to violent racists trolls with unwise words of their own? Yeah. OK? No, she should not do that anymore. > > I don’t understand why you have such a difficult time understanding this. Because we’re looking at it through two fundamentally different viewpoints. You claim she did it as a defence against right wing trolls, where as I said she did on a more casual basis and the defence was just a part of what happened, you’re claiming it as the whole. I also have stated, repeatedly, the issue isn’t primarily with her, but with how NYT has reacted to it. > [@](#): > > So, you demand that, even though you agree that the situations were drastically different, that they should be treated the same. They weren’t drastically different, again, different viewpoints. > [@](#): > > If Jeong was associating with white nationalists and slurring gay people, then I would probably have less sympathy for her. As it was not Jeong, but Quinn, who was doing this, I cannot hold it against her. Less sympathy, but not fired. I know this because you’ve excused her casual racism, haven’t bothered to research her tweets or Quinn Nortons situation, and just tried to deflect what I’m saying as somebody who lacks agency. > [@](#): > > Well, I agree that threats are counter productive, but what is your point in declaring many times in this post about how angry you and your fellow angronauts are, except to indicate that you may do something with and about that anger? That’s your dumb interpretation, I like debating about this, so that’s what I’m doing. > [@](#): > > Final question, you say that you don’t believe that there is any difference between punching up and punching down, right? That it is just as bad for an oppressed population to criticize their oppressors as it is for the oppressors to criticize those they oppress? > > From what you have been arguing, I would “presume” to say that your answer here is yes, that a suppression of the oppressed is just as justified as an uprising of the oppressed, but you are welcome to explain how you would come to a different answer, while still feeling that the privileged majority should be coddled and defended from anything that may make them uncomfortable, no matter how much discomfort you have to give to the minorities to get them to shut up. Not every white person is an oppressor anymore than a POC is the oppressed, the very supposition of that arrangement in your question is the problem. It’s also a problem at the NYT. That’s my entire argument. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2018, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086/580 "2018-08-12T23:56:33Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Well, others **do see it as controversial** indeed, but not in the way you or Chait sees it. > > [https://www.thenation.com/article/function-black-rage/](https://www.thenation.com/article/function-black-rage/) There are two tracks here. You are arguing for TNC being right, and I’ll be happy to dipute that in a moment. But there’s a meta-point we were disputing, which was whether it makes sense for TNC to be in the “of all people” category, where there are fainting couches pulled out if anyone declares him to be a polarizing figure who is risky to be associated with if you are a politician trying to appeal to swing voters in Middle America. You can understand that the latter is true even if you completely agree with his radical ideology. On the merits: the argument you seem to be making (via quotes from others that don’t appear when I quote your post) is that his “rage” and bitterness are justifiable and only to be expected given the black experience in America. But this ignores an important point Chait made: polling consistently shows that African Americans are the most optimistic about the present and future of America, much more so than whites. Or at least that was true when TNC wrote what I quoted. So he is the opposite of representative of that black experience. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-hires-unapologetic-racist-writer/819086.md?page=30)