# New York Times: JFK conspiracy theorists need to be shunned. Agree? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 21, 2007, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-jfk-conspiracy-theorists-need-to-be-shunned-agree/404934 "2007-05-21T15:47:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Hildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Johnny\_Hildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Hildo)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-jfk-conspiracy-theorists-need-to-be-shunned-agree/404934/121 "2007-06-01T06:49:53Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] That fact that you know it means it’s public knowledge. If you want to argue about whether she discussed it or not is your business. It doesn’t change the fact that it’s not the information in the time-delayed manuscript. I have no idea what her great secret is other than it relates to JFK. We already know he was a horn-dog so I’m not sure what she’s holding back. [/QUOTE] Magiver, do you ever want to discuss real proof or are you just happy spewing complete shit? Because I’m an inquiring mind and I’d like to know. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-jfk-conspiracy-theorists-need-to-be-shunned-agree/404934/122 "2007-06-01T12:35:01Z")
Before this thread goes spinning off into **Pit** territory or gets itself closed, is there anyone who is actually arguing for a specific point any more? Or has it already fallen into the morass of nitpicking tiny fragments of statements by other posters while no one really knows what position is being argued? [/Itchy fingered Mod Mode] ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-jfk-conspiracy-theorists-need-to-be-shunned-agree/404934/123 "2007-06-01T12:45:32Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Before this thread goes spinning off into **Pit** territory or gets itself closed, is there anyone who is actually arguing for a specific point any more? Or has it already fallen into the morass of nitpicking tiny fragments of statements by other posters while no one really knows what position is being argued? [/Itchy fingered Mod Mode] [/QUOTE] Hey, have you ever tried to stand in the posture that Oswald purportedly does in those backyard photographs? I can’t do it. Can you? If you can, take a picture of yourself and post it here! ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-jfk-conspiracy-theorists-need-to-be-shunned-agree/404934/124 "2007-06-01T15:34:15Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] The second half of this statement is correct, but the first half is silly. (I do not accuse you of being silly, only your source.) Catholic teaching hospitals perform autopsies all the time. There were a few periods where autopsies were restricted (based on the fact that they were a temptation to grave-robbing to secure bodies) but the idea that the Church had any general condemnation of autopsies appears to be rooted in misunderstandings of actual historical events. (Check out the Catholic Encyclopedia on [Anatomy](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01457e.htm) .) It is true that the RCC has an expectation that body parts (severed limbs, etc.) will be treated with reverence and that if the body is separated in or after death, there should be a serious effort to bring them together for burial. However, that is an issue regarding treatment of the body that is separate from the issue of autopsies and necropsies against which the church has no animus. [/QUOTE] Thanks for the info. Given that my memory now tends to play Silly Putty with things that happened last week, I was a little leery of posting something over thirty years old, but hoped it would prompt someone to come through with better Dope. Your info confirms my essential point: that Robert Kennedy could well have had a strong desire to reunite brain and body. Can’t blame you for reaching for the padlock, but this seems to be the path all JFK assassination threads take. I think it’s the nature of the beast. There’s so much stuff floating around that a piecemeal approach is inevitable. 'Twould help if we held down the sarcasm (you almost had me there, **Hentor** ). ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-jfk-conspiracy-theorists-need-to-be-shunned-agree/404934/125 "2007-06-01T16:49:09Z")
[QUOTE=BJMoose] 'Twould help if we held down the sarcasm (you almost had me there, **Hentor** ). [/QUOTE] Well, my posting it in response to **tomndebb’s** admonition was supposed to be in good humor, but I’m serious about the observation. What is evident to me in these types of threads or discussions is that there are some people who are in fact zealots when it comes to the opposite side of the coin. Some people seem quite wild-eyed and crazy in their opposition to any suggestion against the official version of events. All I know is that I’ve read a couple of books and visited Dealy Plaza, and there are too many improbabilities to swallow, in my opinion, for me to buy into the official version. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2007, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-jfk-conspiracy-theorists-need-to-be-shunned-agree/404934/126 "2007-06-02T02:41:30Z")
[QUOTE=Johnny Hildo] Magiver, do you ever want to discuss real proof or are you just happy spewing complete shit? Because I’m an inquiring mind and I’d like to know. [/QUOTE] Real proof of a coverup? Is that what your asking? If I had that I would be picking out the interior of my next house/car/plane. As much as I’d like to believe everything my government tells me I’ll continue to read, observe and question any material I think is inconsistent. The entire Warren Commission report was aimed at Oswald and the 2nd shot. The 2nd shot got all the attention. To me, the 3rd shot appeared to be from a different type of ammunition than the heavy jacketed bullet Oswald was using. Mortal Error talks about that. I never understood the need for secrecy with the material involved in the case. It took an act of Congress to get it released. I don’t understand what Jackie is withholding from her remaining child about JFK. I don’t know why President Ford thinks the CIA hid or destroyed information regarding the assassination. Maybe I’ll read his book “The Warren Commission”. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2007, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-jfk-conspiracy-theorists-need-to-be-shunned-agree/404934/127 "2007-06-02T04:55:04Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] The second half of this statement is correct, but the first half is silly. (I do not accuse you of being silly, only your source.) Catholic teaching hospitals perform autopsies all the time. There were a few periods where autopsies were restricted (based on the fact that they were a temptation to grave-robbing to secure bodies) but the idea that the Church had any general condemnation of autopsies appears to be rooted in misunderstandings of actual historical events. (Check out the Catholic Encyclopedia on [Anatomy](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01457e.htm) .) [/QUOTE] Tomny, me boyo, I believe you’re a bit younger than I so I’ll assume the Sisters in your day were a bit better educated, both in general and in Church doctrine, but I have a fairly good idea where misinformation about Church doctrine may come from. Back when the much-vaunted Thumb of the Vatican had a lighter touch, mostly because the Electronic Revolution hadn’t made it easier to keep an eye on everybody (except what they did with the altar boys–go figure) but also because of that education thing, the dear Sisters were pulling all sorts of misinformation out of their asses. I heard that bit about autopsies, too, so, just because it wasn’t Official, it was What Folks Were Taught and I can only assume it was worse in Boston in the 30s when Jack and Bobby were coming up. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Hildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Johnny\_Hildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Hildo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2007, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-jfk-conspiracy-theorists-need-to-be-shunned-agree/404934/128 "2007-06-02T08:21:01Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] Hey, have you ever tried to stand in the posture that Oswald purportedly does in those backyard photographs? I can’t do it. Can you? If you can, take a picture of yourself and post it here! [/QUOTE] Christ, THIS bullshit is still being spouted? Oswald’s wife Marina told the Warren Commission that she took the photos herself. Other witnesses claim to have seem the photographs long before the assassination. Marina must be lying! Witnesses who have no reason to lie must be lying! It’s a goddamn conspiracy! ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2007, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-jfk-conspiracy-theorists-need-to-be-shunned-agree/404934/129 "2007-06-02T13:13:22Z")
[QUOTE=Johnny Hildo] Christ, THIS bullshit is still being spouted? Oswald’s wife Marina told the Warren Commission that she took the photos herself. Other witnesses claim to have seem the photographs long before the assassination. Marina must be lying! Witnesses who have no reason to lie must be lying! It’s a goddamn conspiracy! [/QUOTE] Wait - your response is that you could stand in such a position because Marina Oswald said so? Christ, THAT is bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2007, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-jfk-conspiracy-theorists-need-to-be-shunned-agree/404934/130 "2007-06-02T14:32:44Z")
[QUOTE=Johnny Hildo] It’s the other way around. [Detective Thomas McMillon who also was close by, said Ruby shouted: “You rat son of a bitch —you shot the President,” as he fired at Oswald.](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,828230-2,00.html) [/QUOTE] BTW, any footage available somewhere online? (I’m sure there is). I’d like to prove my mother wrong. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2007, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-jfk-conspiracy-theorists-need-to-be-shunned-agree/404934/131 "2007-06-02T16:41:19Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] Wait - your response is that you could stand in such a position because Marina Oswald said so? Christ, THAT is bullshit. [/QUOTE] So you don’t believe Oswald shot at Kennedy, right? That’s pretty far out there. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Hildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Johnny\_Hildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Hildo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2007, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-jfk-conspiracy-theorists-need-to-be-shunned-agree/404934/132 "2007-06-02T20:05:17Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] Wait - your response is that you could stand in such a position because Marina Oswald said so? Christ, THAT is bullshit. [/QUOTE] If this is such an impossible body position, how the fuck did Oswald’s nefarious body double do it? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-jfk-conspiracy-theorists-need-to-be-shunned-agree/404934/133 "2007-06-04T13:10:39Z")
[QUOTE=Johnny Hildo] If this is such an impossible body position, how the fuck did Oswald’s nefarious body double do it? [/QUOTE] Perhaps if you chose to answer questions with answers, rather than other questions and profanities, it would be more convincing. The obvious answer to your question is that he didn’t. If the picture were manipulated, the figure could also be manipulated. Can you stand like that? I’m talking about the one in which his head is to the right (his right) of the plane described by his right foot. Have you ever tried standing like that? Can you send a picture of yourself doing so? This discussion has led me to read more about the backyard photos, and there are more questions than I previously realized about them. I also read yesterday that Marina has since told people that those were not the pictures that she took. ---
**Author:** ![Sunrazor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sunrazor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunrazor)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-jfk-conspiracy-theorists-need-to-be-shunned-agree/404934/134 "2007-06-04T15:11:13Z")
I think the OP asked, “Should JFK conspiracy theorists be shunned?” My answer is “Yes,” and I shun them. But that’s all I have to offer. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Hildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Johnny\_Hildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Hildo)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-jfk-conspiracy-theorists-need-to-be-shunned-agree/404934/135 "2007-06-08T09:07:37Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] Can you stand like that? I’m talking about the one in which his head is to the right (his right) of the plane described by his right foot. Have you ever tried standing like that? Can you send a picture of yourself doing so? [/QUOTE] Funny, Oswald’s body posture isn’t even _one_ of the 22 issues concerning the House Select Commitee on whether the Oswald backyard photos were faked. They totally must have overlooked your scientific observations. If you’re interested, [they seemed to clear most of it up.](http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/photos.txt) But do you care? No, because you know better. You’re on to something, you feckless truthseeker. As [noted researcher Gary Mack](http://www.texasmonthly.com/ranch/jfk/site1.php) states: > [@](#): > > If the photos had been faked in an effort to incriminate Oswald, then one would have expected it to have been released the moment Oswald died. The Dallas Police never released the photos; they only came to light when an unofficial copy was published three months later. So yes, Marina admitted taking the photos. Others had clearly seen the photos prior to the assassination. George de Mohrenschildt had a backyard photo of Oswald with his very writing (“hunter of fascists hahaha”) and signature on it, which handwriting experts proved to be authentic. What the fuck will satisfy you, tinfoil? ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-jfk-conspiracy-theorists-need-to-be-shunned-agree/404934/136 "2007-06-08T12:34:51Z")
[QUOTE=Johnny Hildo] What the fuck will satisfy you, tinfoil? [/QUOTE] I’ll field this for him. Absolutely nothing will satisfy him, or them. They have closed themselves off to any debate, reason or logic. I’ve yet to see one of the “true believers” leave the dark side. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-jfk-conspiracy-theorists-need-to-be-shunned-agree/404934/137 "2007-06-08T13:34:09Z")
[QUOTE=Johnny Hildo] you feckless truthseeker. . . . tinfoil [/QUOTE] What part of the rules against name-calling in **Great Debates** has escaped your attention? Do not do this, again. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-jfk-conspiracy-theorists-need-to-be-shunned-agree/404934/138 "2007-06-08T13:50:01Z")
[QUOTE=Johnny Hildo] So yes, Marina admitted taking the photos. Others had clearly seen the photos prior to the assassination. George de Mohrenschildt had a backyard photo of Oswald with his very writing (“hunter of fascists hahaha”) and signature on it, which handwriting experts proved to be authentic. [/quote] Here are several discussions of the photographs: [http://www.pimall.com/nais/news/backyard.html](http://www.pimall.com/nais/news/backyard.html) [http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id149.htm](http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id149.htm) [http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/the\_critics/griffith/Problems\_with\_case\_against\_Oswald.html](http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/the_critics/griffith/Problems_with_case_against_Oswald.html) Since you brought up the de Mohrenschildt photo, here’s some discussion of that from the third site above: > [@](#): > > The 133-A-DEM photo is much clearer than the snapshots that were allegedly removed from the Paine’s garage. It is so clear and of such high quality that the newsprint is readable on the paper that the figure is holding. Researchers question whether the cheap, plastic, mass-produced Imperial Reflex camera could have captured such fine detail from the distance shown in the photographs. And, again, 133-A-DEM is much clearer and contains more detail than 133-A and 133-B. And since you are so reliant on Marina Oswald’s assertions on the matter, surely you must find her reported statements to be convincing: > [@](#): > > Oswald’s wife, Marina Oswald, is the one who supposedly took the backyard pictures. However, in a recently recorded interview, she said of the backyard photos, “THESE AREN’T THE PICTURES I TOOK” (Livingstone 454, emphasis added). Was she right then, or right now? > [@Johnny Hildo](#): > > What the fuck will satisfy you, tinfoil? A spittle-flecked, red-faced name calling rant. That will satisfy me. Good job! ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-jfk-conspiracy-theorists-need-to-be-shunned-agree/404934/139 "2007-06-08T13:53:56Z")
[QUOTE=spifflog] I’ll field this for him. Absolutely nothing will satisfy him, or them. They have closed themselves off to any debate, reason or logic. I’ve yet to see one of the “true believers” leave the dark side. [/QUOTE] I’m perfectly open to reason, debate and logic. So far, I’ve gotten spittle and answering of questions with questions. I’m not committed to any assertions about the case, but I’m also troubled by the number of oddities and inconsistencies that exist. They certainly give me enough pause that I wouldn’t feel certain enough to say things like you or **Johnny Hildo**. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-jfk-conspiracy-theorists-need-to-be-shunned-agree/404934/140 "2007-06-08T13:58:34Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] A spittle-flecked, red-faced name calling rant. That will satisfy me. Good job! [/QUOTE] Since we have not actually achieved that particular mode of expression in this thread, I really don’t think we need to make this sort of observation, either. [/Moderating] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-jfk-conspiracy-theorists-need-to-be-shunned-agree/404934.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-jfk-conspiracy-theorists-need-to-be-shunned-agree/404934.md?page=8)