# New York Times style... everybody is Mr. This and Ms. That **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 9, 2005, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-style-everybody-is-mr-this-and-ms-that/303029 "2005-05-09T06:20:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-style-everybody-is-mr-this-and-ms-that/303029/1 "2005-05-09T06:20:50Z")
You can’t say anybody’s name in the _New York Times_ without the obligatory Mr. and Ms. titles. What’s up with that anyway? Surely the editors who set this policy must have had the sense to foresee they would be reporting on a world with monsters who don’t measure up to the genteel standards of New York’s high society, leading to unintentional bathos and absurdity. But they blithely pretend it doesn’t look… odd. Imagine Uganda 1972… “Idi Amin is a thoroughly loathesome tyrant with no redeeming graces whatever. Mr. Amin freely admitted to this reporter that he eats roasted babies. However, Mr. Amin stressed that the reports that he stomps kittens are vicious rumors with no basis in fact.” Or… “Pol Pot, the reclusive leader of the Khmer Rouge, announced a temporary halt in the mass slaughter of everyone in the country who can read, to allow for more modern, efficient equipment to be installed for the task. Mr. Pot emphasized that the downtime would be kept to a minimum and the death machine would soon be humming better than before. Mr. Pot refused to take questions about the fate of his grandmother, last seen being marched to a death camp.” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-style-everybody-is-mr-this-and-ms-that/303029/2 "2005-05-09T06:41:10Z")
Every newspaper has its own individual quirks and style rules, and that just happens to be something the NYT does. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-style-everybody-is-mr-this-and-ms-that/303029/3 "2005-05-09T08:25:59Z")
The _Globe and Mail_ does so as well; however, it omits it for some personages (former prime ministers, for example, as well as great scientists, artists, dictators, and other notables, who are customarily referred to by their last names alone). ---
**Author:** ![Dignan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f07891/32.png) [@Dignan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dignan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-style-everybody-is-mr-this-and-ms-that/303029/4 "2005-05-09T10:03:46Z")
I don’t know, I lost a bit of respect for the _Times_ this past year. I’ve heard before that it sticks to its rule of the “Mr.” shown by referring to Meat Loaf as “Mr. Loaf.” However when Ol’ Dirty Bastard died there were a couple of articles about his work and an obituary. I was disappointed that he was referred to as “O.D.B.” or his given name, rather than “Mr. Bastard.” What good are rules if you’re going to bend them like that? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-style-everybody-is-mr-this-and-ms-that/303029/5 "2005-05-09T12:22:10Z")
When Ted Bundy was executed, yes, they refered to him as “Mr. Bundy.” When the Times ammounced in 1980 (I think) that they would stop using “Miss” or “Mrs.” and start using “Ms,” one woman’s comment was "So I’ll no longer be referred to as Miss Steinman, editor-in-chief of _Ms_ magazine? ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-style-everybody-is-mr-this-and-ms-that/303029/6 "2005-05-09T19:49:07Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > … > > “Pol Pot, the reclusive leader of the Khmer Rouge, announced a temporary halt in the mass slaughter of everyone in the country who can read, to allow for more modern, efficient equipment to be installed for the task. Mr. Pot emphasized that the downtime would be kept to a minimum and the death machine would soon be humming better than before. Mr. Pot refused to take questions about the fate of his grandmother, last seen being marched to a death camp.” And in what way did Mr. Pot address Mr. Kettle? ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-style-everybody-is-mr-this-and-ms-that/303029/7 "2005-05-10T00:48:54Z")
Long-dead luminaries and sports figures get the no-title treatment in The Times. There are also at least 4 people The Times refers to _only_ by last name. No title. Not even a first name in the lead. Can you guess who? Hitler, Stalin, Lenin and Freud. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-style-everybody-is-mr-this-and-ms-that/303029/8 "2005-05-10T02:16:02Z")
The New York Times Movie Review has been known to refer to Mr. SquarePants on occasion. **Dignan** stole my point about Mr. Loaf. That’s my favorite. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-style-everybody-is-mr-this-and-ms-that/303029/9 "2005-05-10T05:53:15Z")
> [@](#): > > **Annie-Xmas** : When the Times ammounced in 1980 (I think) that they would stop using “Miss” or “Mrs.” and start using “Ms,” one woman’s comment was "So I’ll no longer be referred to as Miss Steinman, editor-in-chief of Ms magazine? I think you are referring to Ms. _Steinem_. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-style-everybody-is-mr-this-and-ms-that/303029/10 "2005-05-10T05:56:32Z")
> [@Celyn](#): > > And in what way did Mr. Pot address Mr. Kettle? “Hi, Ma.” ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-style-everybody-is-mr-this-and-ms-that/303029/11 "2005-05-10T06:10:35Z")
Sometimes the NYT makes an exception. _After_ Ted Bundy was dead, they stopped using “Mr.” with his name. The same is true with Jeffrey Dahmer. Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot all lost their titles. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-style-everybody-is-mr-this-and-ms-that/303029/12 "2005-05-10T06:11:40Z")
Damn. Sorry. Didn’t preview. My apologies for the giveaway. ---
**Author:** ![CynicalGabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@CynicalGabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CynicalGabe)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-style-everybody-is-mr-this-and-ms-that/303029/13 "2005-05-10T06:32:31Z")
Neither O.D.B., Stalin, or Lenin are real names, so a title of “Mr.” would not be appropriate. If I had my way, the NYT would refer to them as: Mr. Jones Mr. Djugashvilli Mr. Ulyanov and really, we should refer to Mr. Hitler by that convention as well. In proper context, I find it nicely belittling. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-style-everybody-is-mr-this-and-ms-that/303029/14 "2005-05-10T07:06:18Z")
The NYT is very traditionalist in this respect - all other newspapers used to be similar, it’s the NYT which has not changed as much. And American broadsheets have changed less than British ones - the Guardian has perhaps gone furthest. [Here’s](http://www.guardian.co.uk/styleguide/page/0,5817,184841,00.html) their Style Guide’s take on capitalisation, which is a good measure of how much a newspaper’s style has changed over time: > [@](#): > > Times have changed since the days of medieval manuscripts with elaborate hand-illuminated capital letters, or Victorian documents in which not just proper names, but virtually all nouns, were given initial caps (a tradition valiantly maintained to this day by Estate Agents). A glance at the Guardian of, say, 1990, 1970 and 1950 would show greater use of capitals the further back you go. The tendency towards lower case, which in part reflects a less formal, less deferential society, has been accelerated by the explosion of the internet… and [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/styleguide/page/0,5817,184829,00.html]this [/quote] on Mr/Mrs/etc.: > [@](#): > > Mr, Ms, Mrs, Miss > use after first mention on news and comment (but not sport) pages, unless you are writing about an artist, author, journalist, musician, criminal or dead person; defendants keep their honorifics unless they are convicted ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-style-everybody-is-mr-this-and-ms-that/303029/15 "2005-05-10T07:10:03Z")
> [@CynicalGabe](#): > > Neither O.D.B., Stalin, or Lenin are real names, so a title of “Mr.” would not be appropriate. There’s good reasons to not call Stalin or Lenin ‘Mr’, but that’s not one of them. (Would you refuse to call the soon-to-depart leader of the British opposition “Mr Howard”?) ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-style-everybody-is-mr-this-and-ms-that/303029/16 "2005-05-10T07:16:15Z")
Quoth the Globe and Mail Style Guide: > [@](#): > > In news stories, news features, editorials and news opinion pieces, the courtesy titles Mr., Mrs., Ms. etc. are used in second reference to all persons 16 and older. > … In view of the established practice in these fields, the sports and arts sections do not use the standard honorifics. Specialized honorifics that are more in the nature of job descriptions, such as Dr., Prof., Rev., Mr. Justice adn Judge, are sued in first reference… However, if a husband and wife figure in the same story, the honorifics Mr. and Mrs. may be the most efficient way of keeping them strait in subsequent references. > Entertainment and arts figures get honorifics whenever they appear in the news pages. … > In the news section, significant figures in history and the arts are often referred to by a single name, such as Churchill, Hitler, Gandhi, Picasso, Pasteur… For Canada, omit the honorifics for prime ministers from Confederation to Mackenzie King, from Fathers of Confederation, for explorers, for prominent colonial administrators, and for sports and arts figures prominent before the second world war. ---
**Author:** ![Idlewild](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8491ac/32.png) [@Idlewild](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idlewild)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-style-everybody-is-mr-this-and-ms-that/303029/17 "2005-05-10T11:01:29Z")
“Mr. Hitler” just makes me think of the _Dad’s Army_ theme song. ---
**Author:** ![CynicalGabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@CynicalGabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CynicalGabe)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-style-everybody-is-mr-this-and-ms-that/303029/18 "2005-05-10T14:57:39Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > There’s good reasons to not call Stalin or Lenin ‘Mr’, but that’s not one of them. (Would you refuse to call the soon-to-depart leader of the British opposition “Mr Howard”?) I am honestly not sure what this means. Are you saying that being a totalitarian dictator removes one’s right to be called “Mr.”? What does this have to do with Mr. Howard? And when did my old high school math teacher become the leader of the British opposition?