# New York Times Sunday Crossword... how hard? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 23, 2009, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-sunday-crossword-how-hard/490433 "2009-03-23T05:08:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![4JawChuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/f9ae1b/32.png) [@4JawChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/4JawChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-sunday-crossword-how-hard/490433/1 "2009-03-23T05:08:34Z")
Will Shortz says it’s Thursday+ in difficulty. Others say it’s like Monday-Tuesday, with the theme thingy added on. Damn… if that’s all the tougher it is… well, I guess I’m not so good. I usually solve it (many times with 1 or 2 letter errors, which drives me nuts!). So, Dopers, what do you think about this great challenge? It’s a famous benchmark , but do you think it lives up to its reputation? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-sunday-crossword-how-hard/490433/2 "2009-03-23T06:02:04Z")
A guy who rents a room from me is a cruciverbalist, and he waits all week long for for the Sunday NYT. He says it is the most difficult regular crossword. He usually completes it, along with two others, by noon on Sunday. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-sunday-crossword-how-hard/490433/3 "2009-03-23T06:43:19Z")
I usually complete it, but not by noon. (But then, I don’t usually even start it by noon.) It’s not the hardest puzzle, although sometimes it’s pretty hard. What I notice is that once I’ve worked out what the theme is, that usually makes it easier. Today the newspaper left off a bunch of the Down clues. That made it a lot harder.:mad: I don’t think this was done on purpose. I think the newspaper blew it. (One other time I remember, the newspaper printed both the NY and LA Times puzzles and reversed the clues. That was fun…) ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-sunday-crossword-how-hard/490433/4 "2009-03-23T06:57:37Z")
Yes, they’re easier once you discover the theme, or what I call the “gimmick.” But what I love even more than the NYT puzzles are the “World’s Most Ornery” from \*Games \*Magazine. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-sunday-crossword-how-hard/490433/5 "2009-03-23T10:37:08Z")
It’s definitely not the hardest regular crossword. The Saturday NY Times, for instance, is much harder than the Sunday. It’s also no harder than an SF Chronicle Sunday, or the NY Sun. It’s the standard, though, and rightly so. The NY Times established the rules for good crosswords - no two-letter words, symmetry, no squares that aren’t part of both an across and a down clue, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Auntbeast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Auntbeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Auntbeast)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-sunday-crossword-how-hard/490433/6 "2009-03-23T12:35:58Z")
> [@bup](#): > > It’s the standard, though, and rightly so. The NY Times established the rules for good crosswords - no two-letter words, symmetry, no squares that aren’t part of both an across and a down clue, etc. I never noticed that. To the OP: You can buy books of them and find out for yourself. I find the more I do crosswords, the easier I can solve them. I once solved a Sunday crossword, but I had a boring job as a receptionist and basically spent all day doing every crossword I could find. ---
**Author:** ![bink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/439d5e/32.png) [@bink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bink)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-sunday-crossword-how-hard/490433/7 "2009-03-23T15:59:18Z")
I think the Sunday puzzle is about a Wednesday-Thursday level. Not too hard, especially once you’ve figured out the gimmick. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-sunday-crossword-how-hard/490433/8 "2009-03-23T17:09:19Z")
Actually paying attention to the title of the puzzle helps to figure out the gimmick. A couple of times, I’ve been stuck, until I noticed the title. And for me the worst are the letter substitution type of puzzles. For example, there might be multiple answers of the form three [something] but there is only one blank square before [something], so you need to use the numeral 3 to fill in the blank. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-sunday-crossword-how-hard/490433/9 "2009-03-23T19:05:03Z")
I’d say it’s not as hard as it could be, but it’s still pretty challenging. The theme adds a nice touch, and I find that once I understand what a puzzle’s theme is, the theme helps a lot. If Shortz says the big Sunday puzzle is about a Thursday in difficulty, I’m inclined to believe him–to me, the Saturdays are difficult, the Thursdays (and Sundays) are challenging but doable, and the Mondays aren’t much of a challenge at all. ---
**Author:** ![want2know](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@want2know](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/want2know)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-sunday-crossword-how-hard/490433/10 "2009-03-25T16:09:05Z")
I’ve only recently started doing crosswords in earnest, and I can usually do the Sunday NYT puzzle in about 2 hours. I tend to hit a wall halfway through, but once I figure out the theme, it gets easier. BTW, if anyone’s interested, the documentary _Wordplay_ (about Shortz and some of his celebrity fans) is airing on 3/26 on IFC at 3:05 AM and 8:30 AM PDT. I’ve heard it’s quite interesting and I’m looking forward to seeing it. ---
**Author:** ![vinniepaz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b4bc9f/32.png) [@vinniepaz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vinniepaz)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-sunday-crossword-how-hard/490433/11 "2009-03-26T06:01:08Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Actually paying attention to the title of the puzzle helps to figure out the gimmick. A couple of times, I’ve been stuck, until I noticed the title. And for me the worst are the letter substitution type of puzzles. For example, there might be multiple answers of the form three [something] but there is only one blank square before [something], so you need to use the numeral 3 to fill in the blank. Merle Reagle (sp?) does this too, but sometimes even worse. The specific one that comes to mind is a puzzle where the theme clues all contained the word “water.” Just as you say, instead of five boxes there was only one, in which the solver had to _draw a little picture of a drop of water_. While I wasn’t a huge fan of that specific theme, I do love Reagle and think his puzzles are the most fun out there. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-sunday-crossword-how-hard/490433/12 "2009-03-26T16:23:07Z")
> [@vinniepaz](#): > > Merle Reagle (sp?) does this too, but sometimes even worse. The specific one that comes to mind is a puzzle where the theme clues all contained the word “water.” Just as you say, instead of five boxes there was only one, in which the solver had to _draw a little picture of a drop of water_. This sort of thing is what’s known as a rebus theme, and I, for one, love them. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-sunday-crossword-how-hard/490433/13 "2009-03-26T16:48:32Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Actually paying attention to the title of the puzzle helps to figure out the gimmick. A couple of times, I’ve been stuck, until I noticed the title. And for me the worst are the letter substitution type of puzzles. For example, there might be multiple answers of the form three [something] but there is only one blank square before [something], so you need to use the numeral 3 to fill in the blank. I just started one titled “Cruciverbalist”. Not much help so far. We get the Sunday Puzzle a week later. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-sunday-crossword-how-hard/490433/14 "2009-03-26T18:07:40Z")
Actually, that puzzle was about a month ago. The gimmick isn’t very tricky and the title is definitely related. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-sunday-crossword-how-hard/490433/15 "2009-03-27T01:39:13Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Actually, that puzzle was about a month ago. The gimmick isn’t very tricky and the title is definitely related. The name does not open any doors. I figure at the end it will be ,Oh thats what it means’. But often the title will give immediate help. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-sunday-crossword-how-hard/490433/16 "2009-03-27T01:52:12Z")
I assume that you don’t want to know what the word means, or else you’d Google it. So I won’t spoil it for you. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-sunday-crossword-how-hard/490433/17 "2009-03-27T02:13:46Z")
True dat. i prefer to battle away. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-sunday-crossword-how-hard/490433/18 "2009-03-27T03:20:37Z")
> [@bup](#): > > …The NY Times established the rules for good crosswords - no two-letter words, symmetry, no squares that aren’t part of both an across and a down clue, etc. I believe that, back in the days of **Eugene T. Maleska** , brand names were also not allowed. Perhaps **Will Shortz** changed that? ---
**Author:** ![4JawChuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/f9ae1b/32.png) [@4JawChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/4JawChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-sunday-crossword-how-hard/490433/19 "2009-03-27T04:07:39Z")
Thanks for the responses. I’m kind of surprised that, from my searches, there isn’t too much about this classic challenge on the web. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-sunday-crossword-how-hard/490433/20 "2009-03-27T04:50:03Z")
If you’re particularly interested in the New York Times crossword puzzle, you might like to read the NYT blog about it, located [here](http://wordplay.blogs.nytimes.com/). They post about each day’s puzzle, although I recommend not reading the daily entry until after you’ve attempted the puzzle. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-sunday-crossword-how-hard/490433.md?page=2)