# New York Times : Trump lies at least daily, in public, about clearly verifiable facts **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 24, 2017, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-trump-lies-at-least-daily-in-public-about-clearly-verifiable-facts/789761 "2017-06-24T16:11:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-trump-lies-at-least-daily-in-public-about-clearly-verifiable-facts/789761/41 "2017-06-24T21:58:50Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I don’t think she ever confessed to murdering Vince Foster, but that’s more of a lie of omission. > [@elucidator](#): > > Well, he was omitted in a very emphatic way. Omitted with extreme prejudice, one might say. Anyway, the stupidity of Starving Artist and Americans like him help ensure a healthy supply of parasitic entities like Trump to feed off that stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-trump-lies-at-least-daily-in-public-about-clearly-verifiable-facts/789761/42 "2017-06-24T22:59:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Who would judge whether a statement is a lie? You know, this would be an interesting question if it weren’t for how utterly unambiguous literally any statement I reach for would be. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-trump-lies-at-least-daily-in-public-about-clearly-verifiable-facts/789761/43 "2017-06-24T23:07:55Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > For the 2 or so remaining Trump supporters on this forum, how do you reconcile your support with [something this damning](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/100000005182490.mobile.html)? How do you expect ‘your man’ to do what you want when his view of reality appears to be distorted to be what he wants it to be instead of the truth? > > I don’t think he will be removed from office by the Senate. While investigations may be ongoing, I doubt a smoking gun, at least one smoking \*enough \*for Republican senators to act, will ever be found. > > But he does in fact appear to be a liar. On a scale far beyond others like Hillary… Trump supporters most literally do not care what the fuck he does or says, as long as the Republican agenda is being supported, and/or as long as those on the left are dumbfounded by his actions. In fact, no matter what his actions actually accomplish, the bigger the amazed incredulity of the left produced as a result of these actions, the greater the level of success a Trump supporter believes has been achieved. No matter what the actions/deeds/statements actually produce in reality. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-trump-lies-at-least-daily-in-public-about-clearly-verifiable-facts/789761/44 "2017-06-24T23:52:16Z")
BTW, anyone going to the link in the OP can see that the thread title is a lie. I’m shocked. Trump is a disaster, and a liar. But why be like him in order to disparage him? It’s so easy to do so by just sticking to the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-trump-lies-at-least-daily-in-public-about-clearly-verifiable-facts/789761/45 "2017-06-25T01:54:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > BTW, anyone going to the link in the OP can see that the thread title is a lie. I’m shocked. > > Trump is a disaster, and a liar. But why be like him in order to disparage him? It’s so easy to do so by just sticking to the facts. Aye; that was the first thing I thought since I had earlier linked the same article in the Trump Administration Clusterfuck thread. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-trump-lies-at-least-daily-in-public-about-clearly-verifiable-facts/789761/46 "2017-06-25T02:23:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > He’s easily the most prolific and public liar I remember in modern politics. > [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > What’s amazing to me is that Trump lies so often you would think he would be better at it. But he’s an absolutely terrible liar. Yes. Richard Nixon, Lyndon Johnson, and Franklin Roosevelt all lied - a lot. But they at least did a good job at it. They would have a reason for telling a lie, they were aware they were telling a lie, and they kept their lies consistent. Donald Trump tells lies like a four year old would. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-trump-lies-at-least-daily-in-public-about-clearly-verifiable-facts/789761/47 "2017-06-25T02:35:37Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The point isn’t that Clinton lies absolve Trump. Rather, it’s a condemnation of the media for ignoring the lies and deceptive behavior of Democrat politicians while Trumpeting (sorry) those of Republicans. > > Biased and hypocritical reporting by the mainstream media has proven counterproductive (the rise of Limbaugh and Fox, for example). The roughly 50/50 divide in votership hasn’t been diminished in the slightest despite their best efforts all these years. And it’s lead to the situation we have currently where we have the liberal news media and the conservative news media, each of whose audience watches or reads in order to hear what they want to hear. > > One would think they’d learn. Unfortunately the liberal contingent in this country seems immune or uncaring as to the damage it does itself in its zeal to wallow in self-righteousness. Witness Hollywood, for example, whose ticket sales are nowhere what they would be were most of its populace not busily engaged in pissing off half the country. Witness also the blowback by the three quarters of American society that doesn’t identify as liberal, which has resulted in the Republican party being in control of most of the country’s governorships, the House, the Senate, the Presidency, and for a long time, the Supreme Court. Time and time again we’re heard from the small number of liberals who get it that non-stop attacks on everyone who doesn’t agree with you is both a turn off and self-defeating, and yet most of the liberal voices in the country have made clear their intention to double down and engage in even more of it. > > Well, hooray for my side, I guess, but still I’d prefer things run the way they were when adults were still in charge and people and politicians could disagree while acknowledging the other side has what it thinks is best at heart while remaining friends despite their disagreement. Next post, just skip all this typing and cut right to telling us that the promised WMD was in fact found in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-trump-lies-at-least-daily-in-public-about-clearly-verifiable-facts/789761/48 "2017-06-25T03:08:26Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > The simple volume of lies is staggering. [312 through June 19](http://https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017/06/12/donald-trump-has-said-100s-of-false-things-heres-all-of-them.html) They update that piece occasionally. In it, 45 is said to have averaged 2.1 “false statements” per day since January 20. They admit in some cases he might be merely mistaken, instead being an outright liar. (As in the Seinfield reference above.) ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-trump-lies-at-least-daily-in-public-about-clearly-verifiable-facts/789761/49 "2017-06-25T03:28:53Z")
Just transcribe everything he says. If he said water was wet, I’d have to touch some to verify it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-trump-lies-at-least-daily-in-public-about-clearly-verifiable-facts/789761/50 "2017-06-25T03:58:48Z")
Wait, I’ve got it! **Starving Artist** can’t list Clinton’s lies, because he doesn’t know them. And why doesn’t he know them? Why, because the Liberal Mainstream Media has refused to report them, of course! There you go, proof that the media is suppressing stories about Clinton’s lies. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-trump-lies-at-least-daily-in-public-about-clearly-verifiable-facts/789761/51 "2017-06-25T07:25:16Z")
The fact that **Bricker** has to ask who decides if it’s a lie is the problem. The answer should be simple: a blind observer who is not told who said what. But we live in a world where the objective facts themselves can no longer be agreed upon. This is why I say what I say about having to separate out the true believers from the more practical Trump voters. The true believers are a lost cause. You can’t make someone sit up and embrace reality. We have to appeal to the rest, before they also succumb to the father of lies, and we reach the point of one of those dystopian novels. It may not be the exact method shown in 1984, but it is the same result if reality and facts are fluid, based on what your leaders tell you. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-trump-lies-at-least-daily-in-public-about-clearly-verifiable-facts/789761/52 "2017-06-25T13:46:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Who would judge whether a statement is a lie? > > … Good gawd **Bricker** , when 85% of what the hairy yam says is a lie, the odds are in your favor if you simply believe everything he says is a lie. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-trump-lies-at-least-daily-in-public-about-clearly-verifiable-facts/789761/53 "2017-06-25T13:55:38Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The fact that **Bricker** has to ask who decides if it’s a lie is the problem. The answer should be simple: a blind observer who is not told who said what. But we live in a world where the objective facts themselves can no longer be agreed upon. The vast majority of statements at issue are going to be unambiguously identifiable as coming from one speaker or the other other. In other words, your idea of a “blind observer,” would not be possible. Even if the blind observer is not told who said what, he can readily deduce that _The gun industry is “the only business in America that is wholly protected from any kind of liability,”_ came from Clinton and _“The coverage about me in the @nytimes and the @washingtonpost has been so false and angry that the Times actually apologized to its dwindling subscribers and readers,"_ was a Trump claim. Other statements will require knowledge of the speaker to determine the truth: _“The Cuban-Americans, I got 84 percent of that vote.”_ > [@Budget Player Cadet](#): > > You know, this would be an interesting question if it weren’t for how utterly unambiguous literally any statement I reach for would be. Many of the statements in the linked NYT article are ambiguous. The very first lie they offer is Trump saying, “I wasn’t a fan of Iraq. I didn’t want to go into Iraq.” Their rebuttal: _He was for an invasion before he was against it._ But this does not show a lie; in fact, it confirms he didn’t wan’t to go into Iraq at some point. Now, his statement implies by omission that he never held another view, perhaps, but it’s not “utterly unambiguous.” So you’re literally saying that you could offer up the requisite number of utterly unambiguous Trump lies? I don’t say it’s not possible, but I say it would require work, not just copy/paste from links such as the OP offered. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-trump-lies-at-least-daily-in-public-about-clearly-verifiable-facts/789761/54 "2017-06-25T14:18:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The vast majority of statements at issue are going to be unambiguously identifiable as coming from one speaker or the other other. In other words, your idea of a “blind observer,” would not be possible. Even if the blind observer is not told who said what, he can readily deduce that _The gun industry is “the only business in America that is wholly protected from any kind of liability,”_ came from Clinton and _“The coverage about me in the @nytimes and the @washingtonpost has been so false and angry that the Times actually apologized to its dwindling subscribers and readers,"_ was a Trump claim. > > … We’re really not concerned if he overstates Melania’s bra size or How much his evil empire is really worth. We could care less about those lies. We’re concerned about lies like this (again from twitter) _The concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive._ (quoting a Trump tweet) Whether he knew that was false, or carelessly made up facts with deliberate disregard to their truthfulness is immaterial, it is a lie nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-trump-lies-at-least-daily-in-public-about-clearly-verifiable-facts/789761/55 "2017-06-25T14:42:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Many of the statements in the linked NYT article are ambiguous. The very first lie they offer is Trump saying, “I wasn’t a fan of Iraq. I didn’t want to go into Iraq.” Their rebuttal: _He was for an invasion before he was against it._ But this does not show a lie; in fact, it confirms he didn’t wan’t to go into Iraq at some point. Now, his statement implies by omission that he never held another view, perhaps, but it’s not “utterly unambiguous.” > > So you’re literally saying that you could offer up the requisite number of utterly unambiguous Trump lies? I don’t say it’s not possible, but I say it would require work, not just copy/paste from links such as the OP offered. [Politifact.](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/sep/07/donald-trump/trump-repeats-wrong-claim-he-opposed-iraq-war/) > [@](#): > > Trump has a hard time getting past a September 2002 interview with shock jock Howard Stern. Stern asked Trump if he supported the looming invasion. > > Trump responded, [“Yeah, I guess so.”](https://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/in-2002-donald-trump-said-he-supported-invading-iraq-on-the?utm_term=.tbojy50lj7#.uy3jmqrJjK) Rather tepid support but support none the less. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-trump-lies-at-least-daily-in-public-about-clearly-verifiable-facts/789761/56 "2017-06-25T15:06:50Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [Politifact.](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/sep/07/donald-trump/trump-repeats-wrong-claim-he-opposed-iraq-war/) > > Rather tepid support but support none the less. No argument. But Trump does not say “I was never in favor of the invasion of Iraq.” He says he wasn’t a fan, and didn’t want to go in, but he never says that he always held that view. Of course, his statement invites a conclusion that he always held that position, but if the standard is “utterly unambiguous,” then Trump’s statement is safely ambiguous. Perhaps he was speaking about the subsequent point when he wasn’t a fan, and didn’t want to go in. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-trump-lies-at-least-daily-in-public-about-clearly-verifiable-facts/789761/57 "2017-06-25T15:07:05Z")
**bricker** , this isn’t a courtroom in which we have to have an independent finder of fact. This is a message board, and sometimes the right answer becomes more clear to more people as the discussion simply proceeds. Just like in GQ: there’s a substantial number of wrong answers posted in that forum every day, and the mods generally depend on people who know the right answer to continue to post to neutralize the BS for most people. The mods do not even try to post some Mythbuster-like determination of who is right and who is wrong in the thread. If this lie-by-lie challenge gets going, I think it would be perfectly clear to most people who has told the most lies, because at some point, we will be matching up “My huge net worth is partially based on my feelings that day” against “Hello Cleveland! What a great city!” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-trump-lies-at-least-daily-in-public-about-clearly-verifiable-facts/789761/58 "2017-06-25T15:07:56Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > We’re really not concerned if he overstates Melania’s bra size or How much his evil empire is really worth. We could care less about those lies. We’re concerned about lies like this (again from twitter) > > _The concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive._ (quoting a Trump tweet) > > Whether he knew that was false, or carelessly made up facts with deliberate disregard to their truthfulness is immaterial, it is a lie nonetheless. Sure. That is one I agree is an utterly unambiguous lie. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-trump-lies-at-least-daily-in-public-about-clearly-verifiable-facts/789761/59 "2017-06-25T15:12:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No argument. > > But Trump does not say “I was never in favor of the invasion of Iraq.” He says he wasn’t a fan, and didn’t want to go in, but he never says that he always held that view. Of course, his statement invites a conclusion that he always held that position, but if the standard is “utterly unambiguous,” then Trump’s statement is safely ambiguous. Perhaps he was speaking about the subsequent point when he wasn’t a fan, and didn’t want to go in. [Politifact](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/jun/22/donald-trump/trump-still-wrong-his-claim-opposed-iraq-war-ahead/) > [@](#): > > “Though I was not in government service, I was among the earliest to criticize the rush to war, and yes, even before the war ever started,” Trump said. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-trump-lies-at-least-daily-in-public-about-clearly-verifiable-facts/789761/60 "2017-06-25T15:16:07Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > **bricker** , this isn’t a courtroom in which we have to have an independent finder of fact. This is a message board, and sometimes the right answer becomes more clear to more people as the discussion simply proceeds. Just like in GQ: there’s a substantial number of wrong answers posted in that forum every day, and the mods generally depend on people who know the right answer to continue to post to neutralize the BS for most people. The mods do not even try to post some Mythbuster-like determination of who is right and who is wrong in the thread. > > If this lie-by-lie challenge gets going, I think it would be perfectly clear to most people who has told the most lies, because at some point, we will be matching up “My huge net worth is partially based on my feelings that day” against “Hello Cleveland! What a great city!” The problem is that most people on this board are not inclined to give Trump a kind of a fair shake in evaluating lies against an “utterly unambiguous,” standard. And when you move from a generic agreement that Trump tells lots of lies to a specific contest in which lies are matched one-to-one, the person on the pro-Trump side would be a fool to accept the “perfectly clear to most people,” standard you propose. As long as the discussion remains in the general realm, then I think most people know the answer: Trump lies more blatantly and consistently than any other modern politician. But if you start issuing challenges that require counting, and make admissible only “utterly unambiguous” lies, then the participants should absolutely select an agreed-upon neutral arbiter ahead of time, lay out the mutually acceptable criteria, and agree to abide by the results. Like a Randi Challenge, “we’ll just know when we see it,” cannot be the rule in such a contest. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-trump-lies-at-least-daily-in-public-about-clearly-verifiable-facts/789761.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-york-times-trump-lies-at-least-daily-in-public-about-clearly-verifiable-facts/789761.md?page=4)