# New Yorkese **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 2, 2004, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorkese/243165 "2004-05-02T17:11:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mayfield\_St.Cloud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@Mayfield\_St.Cloud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mayfield_St.Cloud)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorkese/243165/1 "2004-05-02T17:11:32Z")
While returning from my Sunday afternoon jaunt with the hound, I spotted a turtle sunning (well, clouding, really, but let’s not get picky) itself on a rock in a stream. In my mind’s voice, I said to myself “Oh look, a toitle”, mentally pronouncing it “toy-tul”, ala Curly of Three Stooges fame. I reflected on what an odd thing it was to pronounce it that way, and remebered that actors portraying New York types often substitute “New Joisey” for “New Jersey”, so I concluded that it must just be a New York thing. But then my mind wandered back to the old “All In The Family” television show, wherein Archie Bunker would often announce his intention to visit the “turlet”, as opposed to “toilet”. This left me perplexed. So, NY Dopers, which is it: “oy” for “ur”, or “ur” for “oy”? Or, is it both? Is it dependent on which part of New York you’re from? And why don’t you prononuce those words “turtle” and “Jersey” and “toilet” like I learned to do growing up in the Midwest? ---
**Author:** ![citrus\_x\_paradisi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6f9a4e/32.png) [@citrus\_x\_paradisi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/citrus_x_paradisi)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorkese/243165/2 "2004-05-02T17:13:55Z")
Would you be terribly disappointed if I told you the only localized speech eccentricity is dropping the ‘a’ in “Italy”? ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Just\_Ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Ed)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorkese/243165/3 "2004-05-02T17:31:37Z")
> [@Mayfield St. Cloud](#): > > And why don’t you prononuce those words “turtle” and “Jersey” and “toilet” like I learned to do growing up in the Midwest? Well, I _do_ pronounce them that way. 😛 I’ve lived in Northeast New Jersey my whole life, and have worked in downtown Manhattan for the past 15 years. I’ve only very rarely heard someone speak with that particular accent, though my father does pronounce “oil” as “earl” and “toilet” as “turlet” (no idea why). But it’s still far more often I hear those accents as television stereotypes than “real life”. Of course, there _is_ the Brooklyn accent - “sneakuhs” rather than “sneakers”, etc. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![SparrowHawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac8455/32.png) [@SparrowHawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SparrowHawk)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorkese/243165/4 "2004-05-02T17:43:48Z")
It’s both and it’s a Brooklyn accent as opposed to a New York accent. It may be disappearing (or already disappeared), it may never have been widespread; I haven’t lived in Brooklyn for over 25 years. (I didn’t grow up there and I don’t pronounce them that way.) But it defintely existed. My dad, a big Brooklyn Dodgers fan, tells of time a player name Hoight was injured on the field and he (my dad) heard a fan ask anxiously, “Is Hurt hoight?” In the absence of trained professional linguists, God alone knows why any kind of regional accent develops. ---
**Author:** ![Mayfield\_St.Cloud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@Mayfield\_St.Cloud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mayfield_St.Cloud)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorkese/243165/5 "2004-05-02T17:47:59Z")
So, Archie and Curly were pretty much “over-the-top” parodies, and most New Yorkers don’t really speak that way? I can buy that. I’ve known a few folks from New York over the years, and I can’t honestly say that I ever noticed them talking that way. Although they do seem to have that annoying habit of saying “soda” when what they mean is “pop” :). Still gotta love Curly, though. ---
**Author:** ![Mayfield\_St.Cloud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@Mayfield\_St.Cloud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mayfield_St.Cloud)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorkese/243165/6 "2004-05-02T17:55:00Z")
> [@SparrowHawk](#): > > My dad, a big Brooklyn Dodgers fan, tells of time a player name Hoight was injured on the field and he (my dad) heard a fan ask anxiously, “Is Hurt hoight?” Great story! But “All In The Family” was set in Queens, although that doesn’t mean that Archie didn’t migrate there from Brooklyn. ---
**Author:** ![Dignan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f07891/32.png) [@Dignan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dignan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorkese/243165/7 "2004-05-02T17:58:50Z")
I’ve thought of starting a thread like this on something that I’ve noticed where a person adds an “-er” to words that end in “a.” I had a professor from New York (don’t know the borough) that would regularly refer to Asia as something that sounded more like “Azhure.” The NHL announcer (Gary Thorne?) for ESPN will often refer to Paul Kariya as “Kariyer.” ---
**Author:** ![citrus\_x\_paradisi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6f9a4e/32.png) [@citrus\_x\_paradisi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/citrus_x_paradisi)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorkese/243165/8 "2004-05-02T18:10:47Z")
**Dignan** makes a good point-- my mother is a Queens-ite, born and raised, and has a tendency to pronounce words ending in ‘a’ with a soft ‘er.’ Thanks. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![cornflakes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@cornflakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornflakes)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorkese/243165/9 "2004-05-02T18:36:47Z")
IANAL (linguist, in this case, or New Yorker for that matter), but… I remember reading as a kid in the 1970s that a good linguist might be able to hear a New Yorker talk and pinpoint where he or she grew up within a matter of blocks. I had the impression that this was because the people in each neighborhood often came from the same area in their home country and in any case they pretty much kept to themselves instead of dealing with people from all around the city. I wonder if a lot of the “New York accents” have softened or disappeared as people moved out of the old neighborhoods and were replaced by other Americans. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorkese/243165/10 "2004-05-02T19:15:28Z")
> [@SparrowHawk](#): > > It’s both and it’s a Brooklyn accent as opposed to a New York accent. I think, actually, it’s a white working class New York accent. I used to have a flatmate from Washington Heights (that’s like way Upper Manhattan) with the same accent. ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorkese/243165/11 "2004-05-03T02:26:31Z")
My father from Brooklyn would eat ersters on thoidy thoid street. (Oysters on 33rd st.) It’s the same accent as Mel Blanc purposely gave Bugs Bunny. It’s my understanding that this is specifically a Brooklyn thing. In the greater NYC area though, there is an exchange of the -er and -a endings. E.g., “New Yorkas love Coca-Coler.” Peace. ---
**Author:** ![Kegg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Kegg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kegg)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorkese/243165/12 "2004-05-03T07:34:00Z")
About a year ago, at the hotel where I work, a caller wanter to sepak with mr or mrs Shore. We didn’t have any one by that name and the caller was certain she had just checked in while she(the caller) was standing there. Well we looked at all our reccords and couldn’t fine them, so I said “how are you spelling that”. She almost screamed S\_H\_A\_W then said Shore?? * * * Spelling and grammer subject to change without notice. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorkese/243165/13 "2004-05-03T15:16:20Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > I think, actually, it’s a white working class New York accent. I used to have a flatmate from Washington Heights (that’s like way Upper Manhattan) with the same accent. It’s certainly a Bronx thing too. I’m from the northeast Bronx, and my mother pronounces “oil burner” as “earl boinuh.” Actually, the pronunciation of “turtle” is often “toy 'ul” (and the subway shuttle is the “shuh 'ul”), with a glottal stop replacing the central consonants. In fact, my German textbook used this example to explain what a glottal stop was. ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorkese/243165/14 "2004-05-03T15:44:56Z")
There are definitely different borough accents: With Brooklyn/Queens being 1, and The Bronx being another. (Mel Blanc’s Bugs Bunny accent was very non-specific - A hybrid of Brooklynese and a Bronx accent) Manhattan is too fluid and evolving for a specific accent - unless you’re talking about Sutton Place - where the accent would be described as ‘Old Money’. You often hear a hints of Bronx accents in Westchester County and Brooklynese On Long Island. Things like: awf for off, duh for the and wawda for water are still quite the norm. Damnit Jim, I’m not a linguist, but I’ve always operated under the assumption NY-speak has it’s roots in German - where the ‘Th’ isn’t used very much. > [@Mayfield St. Cloud](#): > > …they do seem to have that annoying habit of saying “soda” when what they mean is “pop” :)… Pop? Never for soda! As a noun: Either music (or another way of saying Dad). As a verb: Shoot. As in, I’m gonna pop a cap in yer ass. > [@Mayfield St. Cloud](#): > > Great story! But “All In The Family” was set in Queens, although that doesn’t mean that Archie didn’t migrate there from Brooklyn I always assumed All in The Family was set in Glendale Queens, on the border of Ridgewood. If that’s the case, Brooklyn would be just a few blocks west. > [@moriah](#): > > My father from Brooklyn would eat ersters on thoidy thoid street… My Grandmother does the aforementioned er=\>oy / oy=\>er scramble too. But she definitely wouldn’t say _thoidy thoid_ though - It would be more like _Tdoy-dee Turd_. No ‘Th’ sounds ever passes her lips - it’s either a t or d sound instead. Come to think of it, toy-dee turd sounds hauntingly similar to my 2 year-old daughter’s description of her first non-diaper BM). ---
**Author:** ![racinchikki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@racinchikki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racinchikki)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorkese/243165/15 "2004-05-03T15:53:17Z")
I always assumed it had something to do with Dutch pronunciation, but I speak no Dutch so I’ve never been sure I was right. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorkese/243165/16 "2004-05-03T15:57:42Z")
It’s actually very similar to working class Dublinese. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorkese/243165/17 "2004-05-03T15:59:58Z")
> [@JohnBckWLD](#): > > Damnit Jim, I’m not a linguist, but I’ve always operated under the assumption NY-speak has it’s roots in German - where the ‘Th’ isn’t used very much. This is also a feature of the Irish (Gaelic) language, and of the Irish-English accent. I suspect this also had an influence on New Yawk Tawk. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorkese/243165/18 "2004-05-03T16:00:10Z")
Sitting on a coib, A-choipin’ an’ a-boipin’ An’ eatin’ doidy woims." My friend Michael from Bensonhursrt, Brooklyn, pronounces Anthony “Ant-knee.” . . . And let’s not even get into _Baltimore_ accents!! ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorkese/243165/19 "2004-05-03T16:13:02Z")
My father worked for a family company. He didn’t particularly like the business style of the grandson of the founder. He called him (behind his back) “Eddie the Turd.” We’re in Chicago, so you couldn’t mistake it for anything but an insult. Still cracks me up.