# New York's First Gay High School. Necessary? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 28, 2003, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorks-first-gay-high-school-necessary/191510 "2003-07-28T20:24:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![kputt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f475e1/32.png) [@kputt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kputt)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorks-first-gay-high-school-necessary/191510/81 "2003-07-29T16:01:57Z")
whatever. :slap: ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorks-first-gay-high-school-necessary/191510/82 "2003-07-29T16:03:34Z")
I remember hearing of the (old, smaller) Harvey Milk School back when I was a high schooler. I attended an alternative high school myself, and always like to hear about other alt schools. I always thought the Milk School was a great idea, although I suppose there may be some practical problems with having a GLBT-only school. Like, just how high of a Kinsey number would you have to have in order to qualify? But since students apply for admission, the self-selection process should probably be enough to avoid too many complications. If you’re GLBT enough to want to go to Milk, you’re GLBT enough to be there! I would, however, feel sorry for any straight kids who really wanted to go to Milk but couldn’t. Straight kids who are perceived as gay can be bullied just like gay kids. Or some straight kids might just want to go to the same school as their gay best friend. But if you’re “The Gay School” and there’s only room for 100 students, even the most supportive and gay-friendly straight kids are probably out of luck. Which is kind of a shame for the GLBT students too, since it would probably do them good to have supportive straight friends their own age. ---
**Author:** ![kputt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f475e1/32.png) [@kputt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kputt)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorks-first-gay-high-school-necessary/191510/83 "2003-07-29T16:04:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\ ***Kputt** , in this thread you have stated, > > Homosexuality is wrong. Sorry. If people want to live this way, they will have to face the consequences. Even if they have urges to like men if they are men, (same for women), they don’t have to act on them. > > HOMOSExuality is a disorder. > > I have a friend who says she is gay, but I don’t believe her. She has been hurt by men in her life, so I think that’s why she can’t love them. > > IMHO, it doesn’t biologically exist. > > Gay does go away because it is a chosen lifestyle. I don’t care what anyone says to dispute that. > > Homosexuality is wrong and a sin. I believe it is an alternative lifestyle that is chosen by people to live. > > —Can you see where people might get the idea that you are full of both hatred and ignorance? \*\* NO!!! I was stating my opinion on Homosexuality itself, not the people who say they are gay. My views are not ignorant, but valid. Even scientists are not sure it’s bioligical in nature. Many of them think it’s a social and cultural thing. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorks-first-gay-high-school-necessary/191510/84 "2003-07-29T16:10:51Z")
Riiiight. I don’t mind people who claim to be black, but boy, does their so-called “blackness” tick me off . . . ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorks-first-gay-high-school-necessary/191510/85 "2003-07-29T16:15:08Z")
Another reason why there is no comparison between racial segregation and a school for gay and questioning youth: Attendence at the school is **not mandatory** for queer kids. It is not a jail (for protection/segregation/isolation), it’s a safe house (for protection alone). As a young queer woman (lesbian-leaning bi), I would have been in HEAVEN if I could have gone to that school. I was terrorized and harrassed at school for three years, from the time I came out until I got into an Integrated Arts Program (probably the closest thing to a gay school in my area). I got the usual song-and-dance from school authorities; “If you didn’t flaunt it, you wouldn’t have these problems.” (because I refused to be ashamed or lie) “We don’t know what to do with you.” (As if it’s my fault the school board has nothing in place to help kids like me) “Don’t you WANT to get along with your peers?” (Because of course an eighth-grade girl doesn’t have any motivation to belong) I can see how excluding hets could be problematic, and IMO the school could get around that by saying; “We’re a queer-positive environment, and we welcome anyone who is queer-positive. However, we only have limited resources. Until we are given the opportunity to expand further, our mandate is to use our resources to reach queer youth who are at risk.” ---
**Author:** ![Arcite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/67e7ee/32.png) [@Arcite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arcite)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorks-first-gay-high-school-necessary/191510/86 "2003-07-29T16:41:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lamia \* > \*\*I remember hearing of the (old, smaller) Harvey Milk School back when I was a high schooler. I attended an alternative high school myself, and always like to hear about other alt schools. > > I always thought the Milk School was a great idea, although I suppose there may be some practical problems with having a GLBT-only school. Like, just how high of a Kinsey number would you have to have in order to qualify? But since students apply for admission, the self-selection process should probably be enough to avoid too many complications. If you’re GLBT enough to want to go to Milk, you’re GLBT enough to be there! > > I would, however, feel sorry for any straight kids who really wanted to go to Milk but couldn’t. Straight kids who are perceived as gay can be bullied just like gay kids. Or some straight kids might just want to go to the same school as their gay best friend. But if you’re “The Gay School” and there’s only room for 100 students, even the most supportive and gay-friendly straight kids are probably out of luck. Which is kind of a shame for the GLBT students too, since it would probably do them good to have supportive straight friends their own age. \*\* IMO this raises an interesting question. How exactly does one qualify for Milk? On what basis are children determined to be gay? If straight kids can be perceived as gay and bullied as such, and have gay friends whom they wanted to go to school with, couldn’t they just claim to be gay? ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorks-first-gay-high-school-necessary/191510/87 "2003-07-29T16:46:21Z")
I don’t think gayness is a prerequistie for admission. See Lamia’s second paragraph. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorks-first-gay-high-school-necessary/191510/88 "2003-07-29T16:50:29Z")
This thread is evidence of why the Harvey Milk School is still necessary. While I look forward to the day when it _won’t_ be necessary, when discrimination, harassment, social stigma and homophobia will be things of the past, we are - obviously - nowhere close to being there. The next time I have a little bit of extra money with which to be philanthropic, I think I know who I’m writing the check out to. After _Tales of the Closet_, I now have another reason to support the Hetrick-Martin Institute. And for those ignorant among us, I once again point you to the links in my signature line. Read them. Learn from them. Please. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorks-first-gay-high-school-necessary/191510/89 "2003-07-29T17:45:30Z")
> [@](#): > > There are all kinds of regulations and laws, and these kids are being humiliated, beaten, teased. These kids are practically shunned. So the kids at the new all-gay school wouldn’t dream of humiliating and teasing the obese boy, right? And the girl who stutters won’t be shunned? I have a feeling that the kids at the new all-gay school will quickly learn that mean people come in all shapes, sizes, and sexual orientations. And then we’ll read about the new school for gay kids from the gay school who were teased by their gay co-eds for being too gay. ---
**Author:** ![DeskMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DeskMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeskMonkey)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorks-first-gay-high-school-necessary/191510/90 "2003-07-29T17:48:26Z")
D’oh! After reading Esprix’s post as I’m about to post, I could just say “Yeah!” and leave it at that. But I typed it all out, so here’s my 2 cents. I was watching some morning show (whichever one Katie Couric is on) and she was interviewing a representative of the Harvey Milk school. When he said it was for “Gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered kids” she replied (in reference to “transgendered”) “So those are kids who haven’t yet decided their sexuality?” and the guy never corrected her or even addressed it! I almost fell off the elliptical machine (I was at the gym). They need a Doper representing them! That guy was way too mild-mannered. These kids are making a choice to go to this school (many more are making the choice than there are available seats, actually. There’s a list.). It’s not like they’re being herded anywhere. Regular schools will still have their share of homosexual kids, I don’t see why they’re such a hot commodity all of a sudden. These kids still live in modern society, so it’s not like they’re going to forget that there are straight people, too. And they’re learning that if an environment is not suitable for them, they can choose to find a better one rather than taking abuse from people. I think that’s a good thing. It’s unfortunate that school can be such a hostile environment and it would be great there were no reason to have a place like Harvey Milk, but there is and I think it’s an interesting solution. I would love for alternative high schools to become more available for anyone who felt they weren’t being allowed to concentrate on their studies because of bullying. Fat kids, skinny kids, red-headed kids, pimply kids, whatever, as long as they want to learn. I don’t know how that would work since folks wouldn’t want it to come out of their paychecks, and not everyone can afford private school. I guess it’s a fantasy, but if Harvey Milk can make it happen in some small way, that’s fine with me. The more well-educated people in this world, the better. To me, offering an alternative seems like a pretty good way to address the bullying problem since public schools in general don’t seem to be able to do it. And with people like **kputt** littering the planet with their verbal crap, I don’t see tolerance in schools improving in the next couple of semesters anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorks-first-gay-high-school-necessary/191510/91 "2003-07-29T18:00:31Z")
Kputt said, "I DON"T hate gays, and I DON’T feel they are inferior to straight people, and I certainly DON’T look down on them!!! " Well, right here in this thread he said, "Homosexuality is wrong and a sin. " I don’t know about the REST of you, but I DO look down on things I feel are wrong. Or a sin. Or in Kputt’s world, are we applauding things we view as wrong? Sinful? Who are you trying to bullshit? Tell me exactly how you separate the sin from the sinner. It’s impossible in my book. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorks-first-gay-high-school-necessary/191510/92 "2003-07-29T18:10:19Z")
Kputt said, "I DON"T hate gays, and I DON’T feel they are inferior to straight people, and I certainly DON’T look down on them!!! " Well, right here in this thread he said, "Homosexuality is wrong and a sin. " I don’t know about the REST of you, but I DO look down on things I feel are wrong. Or a sin. Or in Kputt’s world, are we applauding things we view as wrong? Sinful? Who are you trying to bullshit? Tell me exactly how you separate the sin from the sinner. It’s impossible in my book. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorks-first-gay-high-school-necessary/191510/93 "2003-07-29T18:10:49Z")
They want to homogenize the Milk school to make it safer? I love it. I’m with **Shirley** … we’re going to have a field day with the mascot selection. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorks-first-gay-high-school-necessary/191510/94 "2003-07-29T18:23:41Z")
To be serious though… I’m afraid that segregation based on sexual orientation runs the risk of alienating groups against each other. How in the heck can kids of impressionable age learn respect for each other’s way of life if they’re pulled apart and never allowed to intermingle? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorks-first-gay-high-school-necessary/191510/95 "2003-07-29T18:31:17Z")
According to the school’s [website](http://www.hmi.org/Youth/HarveyMilkSchool/default.aspx) the criteria for admission are: > [@](#): > > Age 14-16 years old seeking High School Diploma > Credits 0-15 > Must have matriculated from eighth grade > Legal Guardian approval and commitment > Receipt of all necessary paperwork: > School Records (Transcripts) > Attendance Records > Social Security Card > Birth Certificate > Up-to-date Immunization Records > IEP (if available) There are a minimum of three interviews required and if the prospective student is under 18 a parent or guardian must accompany him or her to the interviews. There is no requirement that a student identify as non-heterosexual or trans-anything to apply and matriculate there. The stated mission of the school is > [@](#): > > The Harvey Milk School, a collaborative effort between The Hetrick-Martin Institute and the New York City Department of Education’s Career Education Center Alternative High School Program, is the nation’s first accredited public high school designed to meet the needs of gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender and questioning youth (LGBTQ). > > The school offers LGBTQ youth an opportunity to obtain a secondary education in a safe and supportive environment. It is the goal of The Hetrick-Martin Institute and the New York City Board of Education that youth enrolled in the Harvey Milk School are challenged to achieve their full potential. The Harvey Milk School strives to develop life-long independent learners by creating a participative educational environment focused on academic excellence, with a special emphasis on arts and technology. Integrating an accredited curriculum with life experience, we seek to incorporate appropriate after school services and the evaluation of their impact. We believe that success requires the ability to respect and value the diverse human community. Such a radical and terrifying idea…kids should be allowed to go to a school that’s safe. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorks-first-gay-high-school-necessary/191510/96 "2003-07-29T18:53:13Z")
Actually, Harvey Milk is not currently a member of the Public Schools Athetic League, meaning they don’t offer interscholastic team sports. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorks-first-gay-high-school-necessary/191510/97 "2003-07-29T18:55:26Z")
Thanks for reposting that, **Otto** , as I was just about to. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorks-first-gay-high-school-necessary/191510/98 "2003-07-29T19:37:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PunditLisa \* > \*\*So the kids at the new all-gay school wouldn’t dream of humiliating and teasing the obese boy, right? And the girl who stutters won’t be shunned? > \*\* As I mentioned, I went to an alt high school myself, and I can assure you that the students there really would not have humiliated and teased an obsese boy or shunned a girl that stuttered. Considering that most of the students were there because they didn’t “fit in” at mainstream schools then few would ever have even thought to do such a thing. Peer pressure discouraged most problems, and the few exceptions were dealt with strictly by the administration. The worst possible punishment, one my school did not hesitate to apply when necessary, was sending the offending student back to his or her neighborhood high school. That’s one of the many advantages alt schools have over mainstream schools – it’s much easier for them to toss problem students out. With only 100 spots and a long waiting list, I doubt the Milk School is going to put up with students who bully each other. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorks-first-gay-high-school-necessary/191510/99 "2003-07-29T20:12:13Z")
Lieu said, “How in the heck can kids of impressionable age learn respect for each other’s way of life if they’re pulled apart and never allowed to intermingle?” They’re not being pulled apart, per se. The school is there for kids who are floundering due to the problems associated with being gay in an anti-gay atmosphere. Not all kids have as hard a time. A kid would have to be pretty miserable to move himself into a “labeled” school. He’d have to be pretty scared, pretty distracted, pretty depressed to take such a step. Who knows? Maybe some of these kids will develop the strengths needed to cope and go back to regular high school for their senior year. ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorks-first-gay-high-school-necessary/191510/100 "2003-07-29T20:33:26Z")
What if a group of conservatives got together, formed a group, and DEMANDED that gays go to a different, separate school? What would the reaction from gays be? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorks-first-gay-high-school-necessary/191510.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-yorks-first-gay-high-school-necessary/191510.md?page=6)