# New Zealand should give Aristocratic titles to there Native people of Noble birth. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2013, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423 "2013-12-16T00:48:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/41 "2013-12-16T23:46:49Z")
> [@Ben-wynyard](#): > > I am to ask the question. Why aren’t Maori Nobility of New Zealand titled? The country is full of Ariki/Royals and Rangatira/Aristocrats! So if New Zealand has a Queen with a Title then why hasn’t she titled her noble subjects? Which were well established before the British took over. Yes, New Zealand has a Maori King, but he is only king of those who recognise the Kingship within there tribes,but his kingship is narrower than Maori Society it self, so therefore could not grant titles, perhaps he could but only within his realm, Because Maori are tribal, it makes this authority more difficult, having a modern monarchy of Queen elizabeth makes us more united in a way, but I believe The Maori Nobility should be granted titles equivalent to there ancestral ranking. Eg a Rangatira/Chief/Cheiftainess/Aristocrat could be given the name of there Marae or region they are from for example a Rangatira from Taranaki could be called Rangatira Sir James of Stratford or if they are Ariki/Paramount Chief/King they called be called Ariki Duke of Ngati Tama. This establishment would raise Maori importance within the European community, giving them a recognised international translation to there rightful names, at the Moment a Rangatira is simply Mr Joe Bloggs. What are your thoughts?? This actually is an idea that might have worked in the old British Empire – inducting native princes into the House of Lords. (Though racial prejudice might have been a barrier). Or, establishing a separate House of Lords for each colony’s parliament. But what relevance has it now? ---
**Author:** ![Ben-wynyard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@Ben-wynyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben-wynyard)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/42 "2013-12-17T13:51:31Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Notably, membership in groups like that is self-determined. It’s not by birth, and it’s not enforced by the state. > Ideally, the number of aristocrats in the world should be zero. Thus, using the Queen as part of your argument for Maori nobility evokes thoughts of “two wrongs don’t make a right.” I am unsure how having a monarchy is wrong? Having a queen is a lot safer than a republic. The crown is a representation of our freedom today, the crown is so sacred , sooo priceless that not just anyone can wear it, it is selected by birth who shall bear the crown if the nation. The queen is kept special, kept sacred and the accident of birth into this role is less likely to be corrupt. The fact that the crown is kept well above parliament, the ministers and judges , keeps our nation safer, the powers are divided up rather than concentrated into the one group, the queen has no political say, but can exercise powers if the prime minister breaks the laws, and can do this on behalf of the nation, the monarchy is modern and is relavant for today. All monarchies have a bad past but so do republics, in fact it is republics today who are at war with each other today. Eg United States of America ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/43 "2013-12-17T13:55:20Z")
No truce with Kings, no parley with tyrants! ---
**Author:** ![Ben-wynyard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@Ben-wynyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben-wynyard)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/44 "2013-12-17T13:59:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > This actually is an idea that might have worked in the old British Empire – inducting native princes into the House of Lords. (Though racial prejudice might have been a barrier). Or, establishing a separate House of Lords for each colony’s parliament. But what relevance has it now? But I don’t think people get it, this idea exist today! We have a Queen! Who derives from exactly that idea. Titles for the Maori would not GIVE any powers or privledges, it will only recognise there traditional past and leadership in a European system that exist in NZ. The titles would acknowledge there noble roots , whether commoners like it or not Aristocrats existed. Just like the Queen is acknowledged in New Zealand for her aristocratic roots, so Why aren’t her native nobility recognised as well? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/45 "2013-12-17T14:03:01Z")
> [@Ben-wynyard](#): > > The idea of giving Titles to Maori Aristocrats seems to many people to be a ridiculous idea or notion, merely looking at peoples responses, they cant seem to see the other side of it. Has there been talk of this idea in the New Zealand press? cite, please. ---
**Author:** ![Ben-wynyard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@Ben-wynyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben-wynyard)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/46 "2013-12-17T14:08:14Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > If Maori people want to perpetuate their traditional feudal system, then I guess that’s up to them. Why should anyone outside of New Zealand care? As an American I am unalterably opposed to any sort of monarchy or titles of nobility, and I’d be ashamed to accept one. > > If the problem is that white guys get to have a white queen but Maori guys don’t get to have a Maori queen then the solution is to strangle the last king with the entrails of the last priest. And if you want to have a private club of Maori aristocracy then go right ahead, the right of free association is well established in modern democratic society. So if you only let the eldest child of a club member join your club, then fine. But the rest of us are free to shrug and pay no attention to your club, any more than we do the Masons and the Scientologists. Your are right in what you say, the Europeans in NZ get to have a white queen, but bring the idea of having a Maori queen residing over New Zealand all hell would break loose. So we as Maori are suppouse to acknowledge a white queen all the while, our own king is subjected to white queens laws?? As a native race of New Zealand, we will never see the day that our people will have the right to sovereign ourselves, is that fair? ---
**Author:** ![Ben-wynyard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@Ben-wynyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben-wynyard)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/47 "2013-12-17T14:16:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Has there been talk of this idea in the New Zealand press? cite, please. No there hasn’t, however we have a Maori king movement, which isn’t a tribe but merely a movement recognised by many tribes and is currently hosted by the Tainui tribe. At any stage a tribe can ask to host the kingship, remember each tribe had its own royals and aristocrats with different customs and lore. This movement was created in retaliation to colonisation, the reason it has been a topic, my grandmother and my relatives were Maori Aristocrats, although in many ways lived like it, the fact that my grandmother passed away with no regard to her traditional birth from the system we live in pisses me off. She was 93 and a Princess, who died without a title to bear and acknowledge here ancestors and the importance her family had to her people before European and after Europeans arrived. Titles did not matter to her, she was never interested in it, nor was her sister in law who is by birth right a Ariki/ Queen. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/48 "2013-12-17T14:31:34Z")
So claim your title. Get it printed on your business cards, have it tattooed onto your forehead, whatever. You are aware of your heritage, as are (I presume) all members of your tribe. What benefits would you expect to receive by having The Queen recognize you? You would still be her servant, although one with a shiney medal to pin to your lapel on her birthday. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/49 "2013-12-17T14:52:17Z")
> [@Ben-wynyard](#): > > I am unsure how having a monarchy is wrong? The equality of citizens is a cornerstone of a moral, enlightened state. > [@Ben-wynyard](#): > > Having a queen is a lot safer than a republic. The crown is a representation of our freedom today, the crown is so sacred , sooo priceless that not just anyone can wear it, it is selected by birth who shall bear the crown if the nation. The queen is kept special, kept sacred and the accident of birth into this role is less likely to be corrupt. The fact that the crown is kept well above parliament, the ministers and judges , keeps our nation safer, the powers are divided up rather than concentrated into the one group, the queen has no political say, but can exercise powers if the prime minister breaks the laws, and can do this on behalf of the nation, the monarchy is modern and is relavant for today. Funny, I’m free, yet this doesn’t depend on any “sacred”, “special” people, and the powers of my government are divided up; actually moreso than Westminster-style systems like New Zealand’s. Why should someone tossed into a role because of who gave birth to them be less corrupt than someone accountable to an electorate? No person selected purely on the basis of who their parents were should ever be in a position to exercise powers over the government. The notion is medieval. That’s not to say modern constitutional monarchies are immoral or doomed to fail, but they do offend those who believe in egalitarian democracy. > [@Ben-wynyard](#): > > All monarchies have a bad past but so do republics, in fact it is republics today who are at war with each other today. Eg United States of America Surely you’ve noticed the trend toward fewer and fewer actual powers for monarchs, in favor of power being vested in elected represenatives. The historical tide is moving away from the aristocrats, not toward them. What republic is the U.S. at war with? ---
**Author:** ![Ben-wynyard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@Ben-wynyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben-wynyard)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/50 "2013-12-17T14:56:06Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > So claim your title. Get it printed on your business cards, have it tattooed onto your forehead, whatever. You are aware of your heritage, as are (I presume) all members of your tribe. What benefits would you expect to receive by having The Queen recognize you? You would still be her servant, although one with a shiney medal to pin to your lapel on her birthday. I do have it tattooed, that’s how we do it in our culture, and she has an entire volcano as her head stone lol it’s just about acknowledging her birth, just like we acknowledge the queens birth officially, but what I’m mainly talking about is Having our versions of Rangatira or Ariki translated officially into a formal title, at the moment there isn’t any formal or official translation, we have no recognition. My grandmother was a Maori Princess , she died not with the title in which belongs to her, she died merely as Mrs Joe Bloggs. Just like a Dr or professor and even the Queen can claim there title my grandmother can-not. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/51 "2013-12-17T15:05:23Z")
Doctors and professors earn their titles personally, such as a knighthood is earned. Is there any restrictions on a New Zealand citizen which would prevent him or her from using a hereditary title? I ask because in the United States we are not allowed to claim hereditary titles and feel they are absurd affectations which should be only brought out for parades and other special opccasions. Without having the honor of knowing your grandmother, I presume she was a right old girl. Did she ever wish to be recognized as a Princess, or was she fulfilled being “Mrs Joe Bloggs?” What benefits would she accrue by being anything more than “Mrs Joe Bloggs,” citizen of New Zealand? (My birth is acknowledged by my family and friends, but I have absolutely no interest in being acknowledged for anything an ancestor of mine was called or achieved.) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/52 "2013-12-17T15:06:45Z")
> [@Ben-wynyard](#): > > No there hasn’t… So no one of note is arguing either side of this(or even talking about it at all), making this less of a “Great Debate” and more of a personal wish on your part? ---
**Author:** ![Ben-wynyard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@Ben-wynyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben-wynyard)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/53 "2013-12-17T15:08:38Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > The equality of citizens is a cornerstone of a moral, enlightened state. > > Funny, I’m free, yet this doesn’t depend on any “sacred”, “special” people, and the powers of my government are divided up; actually moreso than Westminster-style systems like New Zealand’s. > > Why should someone tossed into a role because of who gave birth to them be less corrupt than someone accountable to an electorate? > > No person selected purely on the basis of who their parents were should ever be in a position to exercise powers over the government. The notion is medieval. That’s not to say modern constitutional monarchies are immoral or doomed to fail, but they do offend those who believe in egalitarian democracy. > > Surely you’ve noticed the trend toward fewer and fewer actual powers for monarchs, in favor of power being vested in elected represenatives. The historical tide is moving away from the aristocrats, not toward them. > > What republic is the U.S. at war with? They are at war with Afghanistan , soon to be Syria and the Russians hate you and so do have the world. You are wrong about the trend, just because there are many republics out there it doesn’t mean they are any better, you forget, you have this old notion that aristocrats are ruling like they use to , your wrong,the monarchy is modern and has changed, hence why so many commoners are marrying into royal families. I never said if you were republic you are less free, I said you are less safe, your power is heavily weighed upon only one man, and that’s your president, who has a political say and can interfere with the course of justice, our queen cannot! She can not even step on the carpet in parliament. Monarchies are much safer and believe it or not , I’m pretty sure Prince Williams wedding was watched by billions of people around the world and the queens diamond jubilee was Amazing! There must be something in the idea that people relate and feel comfortable in.European royalty are also very popular.its ur American views on it, it isn’t Disney world nor is it a fairy tale. That old world aristocratic way of thinking no linger exist. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/54 "2013-12-17T15:14:06Z")
> [@Ben-wynyard](#): > > I never said if you were republic you are less free, I said you are less safe, your power is heavily weighed upon only one man, and that’s your president, who has a political say and can interfere with the course of justice, our queen cannot! I don’t think you understand how democratic republics OR monarchies work. ---
**Author:** ![Ben-wynyard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@Ben-wynyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben-wynyard)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/55 "2013-12-17T15:21:28Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Doctors and professors earn their titles personally, such as a knighthood is earned. > > Is there any restrictions on a New Zealand citizen which would prevent him or her from using a hereditary title? I ask because in the United States we are not allowed to claim hereditary titles and feel they are absurd affectations which should be only brought out for parades and other special opccasions. > > Without having the honor of knowing your grandmother, I presume she was a right old girl. Did she ever wish to be recognized as a Princess, or was she fulfilled being “Mrs Joe Bloggs?” What benefits would she accrue by being anything more than “Mrs Joe Bloggs,” citizen of New Zealand? > > (My birth is acknowledged by my family and friends, but I have absolutely no interest in being acknowledged for anything an ancestor of mine was called or achieved.) Your totally right, she was very fulfilled by being Mrs Joe Bloggs, she knew who she was and in fact it was a trait of her people to be humble and to strike thy enemy with peace, it was engraved in there psych. She was 93 years old , she be 95 now, she had 17 children and only 1 husband. She never spoke of her status, it was seen as gloating to her, nothing would accrue from her being officially titled in the European sense, however ,my concern was, I am Maori, I do not speak my language , like most don’t from my generation , I was born in a region which tribally I do not belong to, and many Maori do these days,many now live in Australia. My concern is, in 200 to 300 years, my decendants and her people will never know who she was, nor will they know who they decend from, they will never know who there Rangatira was and because most maori now live a European lifestyle, majority of us only understand Maori concepts in a European way. Come 300 years later , my decendants and the historians will know how to trace it back and why they are tracing back. The questions would be asked, why were they titled? What made them so special? Ohhh that’s right, this lady was the daughter of an Ariki , what was his name?? Therefore making it easier to trace back and understand it better ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/56 "2013-12-17T15:39:53Z")
> [@Ben-wynyard](#): > > They are at war with Afghanistan , soon to be Syria and the Russians hate you and so do have the world. The foe the U.S. is fighting in Afghanistan is not the quasi-democratic government, but rather the remnents of the previous government, an Islamist fundamentalist dictatorship called the Taliban, and assorted insurgents and radicals. The U.S. hasn’t been at war with a republic since 1812, and even that’s debatable. > [@Ben-wynyard](#): > > You are wrong about the trend, just because there are many republics out there it doesn’t mean they are any better, you forget, you have this old notion that aristocrats are ruling like they use to , your wrong,the monarchy is modern and has changed, hence why so many commoners are marrying into royal families. The trend was for less power for aristocrats. If you have evidence to the contrary, please provide it. The modern monarchy you’re describing is itself an example of this trend, mind you. As is the spectacle of commoners marrying royals, this nicely captures the slow demise of the aristocracy, which should be encouraged. I don’t think that aristocrats are able to summarily execute peasants like in the old days, note that my objection was to the concept, not any particular privilege or power. > [@Ben-wynyard](#): > > I never said if you were republic you are less free, I said you are less safe, your power is heavily weighed upon only one man, and that’s your president, who has a political say and can interfere with the course of justice, our queen cannot! She can not even step on the carpet in parliament. Monarchies are much safer and believe it or not , I’m pretty sure Prince Williams wedding was watched by billions of people around the world and the queens diamond jubilee was Amazing! I never said you said I was less free, I noted that since I _am_ free, and don’t live under a monarch, freedom does not depend upon a monarch. You don’t seem to understand the American political system very well (not that I should expect a New Zealander without an interest in the subject to), it distributes power between the 50 states and the federal government, and between the three branches of government. Also, the President can be impeached, the process for removing a monarch is [much messier.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_I_of_England#Execution) The President can interfere in the course of justice by issuing pardons, if that’s what you mean, but so can the Queen (typically via the Home Secretary, as I understand it). > [@Ben-wynyard](#): > > There must be something in the idea that people relate and feel comfortable in.European royalty are also very popular.its ur American views on it, it isn’t Disney world nor is it a fairy tale. That old world aristocratic way of thinking no linger exist. An appeal to popularity isn’t actually a defense of the idea itself. The only defenses you’ve offered are that the Commonwealth already has aristocrats, and that issuing formal titles is essential to preserve Maori history. To the former, I say that it’s lamentable, to the latter, I say - why should it be so? ---
**Author:** ![Ben-wynyard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@Ben-wynyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben-wynyard)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/57 "2013-12-17T15:44:13Z")
P.s to answer your question about there being any laws within nz that would restrict us using titles? As far as I am aware there is no law restricting us to do so, the queen uses one. However, titles are granted by the head of the monarchy, we could petition our own title within our own realm as my grandmother father was head of his own clan and the Same with her sister inlaw. So I guess seeking permission would only need to come as far as my own family. The international commission of nobility may recognise this. The current queen in nz has no real authority, nz actually has no constitution, we run basically on principals, because technically not all tribes agreed to the British treaty as all tribes were treated as kingdoms, there these kingdom were illegally taken over. ---
**Author:** ![Ben-wynyard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@Ben-wynyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben-wynyard)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/58 "2013-12-17T15:55:51Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Doctors and professors earn their titles personally, such as a knighthood is earned. > > Is there any restrictions on a New Zealand citizen which would prevent him or her from using a hereditary title? I ask because in the United States we are not allowed to claim hereditary titles and feel they are absurd affectations which should be only brought out for parades and other special opccasions. > > Without having the honor of knowing your grandmother, I presume she was a right old girl. Did she ever wish to be recognized as a Princess, or was she fulfilled being “Mrs Joe Bloggs?” What benefits would she accrue by being anything more than “Mrs Joe Bloggs,” citizen of New Zealand? > > (My birth is acknowledged by my family and friends, but I have absolutely no interest in being acknowledged for anything an ancestor of mine was called or achieved.) Your totally right, she was very fulfilled by being Mrs Joe Bloggs, she knew who she was and in fact it was a trait of her people to be humble and to strike thy enemy with peace, it was engraved in there psych. She was 93 years old , she be 95 now, she had 17 children and only 1 husband. She never spoke of her status, it was seen as gloating to her, nothing would accrue from her being officially titled in the European sense, however ,my concern was, I am Maori, I do not speak my language , like most don’t from my generation , I was born in a region which tribally I do not belong to, and many Maori do these days,many now live in Australia. My concern is, in 200 to 300 years, my decendants and her people will never know who she was, nor will they know who they decend from, they will never know who there Rangatira was and because most maori now live a European lifestyle, majority of us only understand Maori concepts in a European way. Come 300 years later , my decendants and the historians will know how to trace it back and why they are tracing back. The questions would be asked, why were they titled? What made them so special? Ohhh that’s right, this lady was the daughter of an Ariki , what was his name?? Therefore making it easier to trace back and understand it better ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/59 "2013-12-17T15:59:34Z")
> [@Ben-wynyard](#): > > P.s to answer your question about there being any laws within nz that would restrict us using titles? As far as I am aware there is no law restricting us to do so, the queen uses one. However, titles are granted by the head of the monarchy, we could petition our own title within our own realm as my grandmother father was head of his own clan and the Same with her sister inlaw. So I guess seeking permission would only need to come as far as my own family. The international commission of nobility may recognise this. The current queen in nz has no real authority, nz actually has no constitution, we run basically on principals, because technically not all tribes agreed to the British treaty as all tribes were treated as kingdoms, there these kingdom were illegally taken over. This doesn’t make any sense. The queen doesn’t have any real authority, but you want her to grant you a title which will have no real authority, and that will help - how, exactly? That having been said, feel free to call yourself the Grand Poo-bah of the Imperial Divan if you like. Since it won’t affect anything, and nobody with any sense is going to pay the slightest attention anyway, I don’t see a downside. Regards, His Serene and Implacable Majesty Shodan, Grand Prince of the Imperial Washroom, Keeper of the Mystic Handshake and Slapper of the Infidel ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/60 "2013-12-17T16:02:14Z")
Have you considered using [ancestry.com](http://ancestry.com) if you want to keep track of your ancestors? Also, the contraction of “you are” is “you’re”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423.md?page=4)