# New Zealand should give Aristocratic titles to there Native people of Noble birth. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2013, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423 "2013-12-16T00:48:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/61 "2013-12-17T16:03:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Regards, > His Serene and Implacable Majesty Shodan, Grand Prince of the Imperial Washroom, Keeper of the Mystic Handshake and Slapper of the Infidel Please make this permanent. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/62 "2013-12-17T16:21:59Z")
> [@Ben-wynyard](#): > > Your totally right, she was very fulfilled by being Mrs Joe Bloggs, she knew who she was and in fact it was a trait of her people to be humble and to strike thy enemy with peace, it was engraved in there psych. She was 93 years old , she be 95 now, she had 17 children and only 1 husband. She never spoke of her status, it was seen as gloating to her, nothing would accrue from her being officially titled in the European sense, however ,my concern was, I am Maori, I do not speak my language , like most don’t from my generation , I was born in a region which tribally I do not belong to, and many Maori do these days,many now live in Australia. My concern is, in 200 to 300 years, my decendants and her people will never know who she was, nor will they know who they decend from, they will never know who there Rangatira was and because most maori now live a European lifestyle, majority of us only understand Maori concepts in a European way. Come 300 years later , my decendants and the historians will know how to trace it back and why they are tracing back. The questions would be asked, why were they titled? What made them so special? Ohhh that’s right, this lady was the daughter of an Ariki , what was his name?? Therefore making it easier to trace back and understand it better Our sticking point here is that one does not need to have active, recognized titles of nobility in order to teach your descendants about your family history. On my maternal grandmother’s side we were Nagys and Szabos; Magyar nobility. My maternal grandfather’s family has a city named for them in County Claire, Ireland (yes, the city is named for them, not them for the city). My father’s side were Croatian and Ukrainian peasants back as far as we can find (which isn’t very far, since no one gave enough of a damn about the peasants to preserve records). My daughters are well aware of these facts, and we have documented as much as we can for posterity. I do not speak Hungarian, Erse, or any dialect of Russian, but our family traditions do continue from “the Old Countries” (from my father’s side, that tradition involves drinking too much on holidays). If you want your family history to be retained it is up to you to retain it, and not depend upon the whims of the Sovereign to grant or withhold obsolete titles. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/63 "2013-12-17T16:25:29Z")
> [@Ben-wynyard](#): > > however ,my concern was, I am Maori, I do not speak my language , like most don’t from my generation , I was born in a region which tribally I do not belong to, and many Maori do these days,many now live in Australia. My concern is, in 200 to 300 years, my decendants and her people will never know who she was, nor will they know who they decend from, they will never know who there Rangatira was and because most maori now live a European lifestyle, majority of us only understand Maori concepts in a European way. Come 300 years later , my decendants and the historians will know how to trace it back and why they are tracing back. The questions would be asked, why were they titled? What made them so special? Ohhh that’s right, this lady was the daughter of an Ariki , what was his name?? Therefore making it easier to trace back and understand it better Ya’at’eeh, **Ben-wynyard**. I understand your concern. I really do. I’m of Western European mongrel stock myself, but grew up among the Diné in New Mexico and have in more recent times spent a great deal of time involved with the Aztlán movement (cultural, not political). I have close friends descended from Kamehameha. My former spouse was Persian. I totally get the fear, frustration, and anger that comes from seeing your culture appropriated, marginalized, sidelined and sidetracked. It hurts. And I totally get wanting the co-opting culture(s) to recognize your cultural heritage. I understand wanting the NZ government and HRM to come along and say “Yes, you’re right, you have an important heritage and it should be respected.” They’ve done that, of course, but it’s easy to write off what politicians say as merely lip service. Maybe you’re right; maybe a formal recognition of historical noble titling would make it easier for you, and your kids, and your grandkids to really understand their historical culture. But probably not. Cultures disperse. People move. Languages and traditions fade. I’m sorry, but it’s the case. Embrace your heritage, if it’s important to you. Take what is valuable to you from your ancestry and live it. Keep alive the traditions you feel are important. But don’t expect anyone else to do it for you. -a- ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/64 "2013-12-17T16:28:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Please make this permanent. Imagine the Pittings. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/65 "2013-12-17T16:29:50Z")
Or IOW, what **Dr. F** said, and probably more ably than I. Yet again. 😃 All that is leaving aside the simple fact that “traditional culture” is all a ton of bollocks anyway. It’s not fabricated, really, but more of a snapshot in time at best, and usually a pastiche. But that might be a discussion for another time… ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/66 "2013-12-17T16:33:22Z")
Should I be offended that Maori tribes don’t recognize my self-conferred nobility? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/67 "2013-12-17T17:43:23Z")
> [@Ben-wynyard](#): > > New Zealand should give Aristocratic titles to there Native people of Noble birth. Wouldn’t it be simpler just to give them a reality TV show? The ratings would probably be respectable, at least in sub-Oz. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/68 "2013-12-17T18:18:31Z")
> [@Ben-wynyard](#): > > P.s to answer your question about there being any laws within nz that would restrict us using titles? As far as I am aware there is no law restricting us to do so, the queen uses one. However, titles are granted by the head of the monarchy, we could petition our own title within our own realm as my grandmother father was head of his own clan and the Same with her sister inlaw. So I guess seeking permission would only need to come as far as my own family. The international commission of nobility may recognise this. The current queen in nz has no real authority, nz actually has no constitution, we run basically on principals, because technically not all tribes agreed to the British treaty as all tribes were treated as kingdoms, there these kingdom were illegally taken over. Damn, there really is an [International Commission on Nobility and Royalty](http://www.nobility-royalty.com/). Don’t expect this group of pompous, Eurocentric old farts to validate your tradition. Celebrate it yourself. Organize people in your country to honor your traditions. Preserve the Maori language–but publish your story in other languages, so the world will know. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/69 "2013-12-18T01:16:54Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > . . . On my maternal grandmother’s side we were Nagys and Szabos; Magyar nobility. My maternal grandfather’s family has a city named for them in County Claire, Ireland (yes, the city is named for them, not them for the city). There’s a city in County Clare? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/70 "2013-12-18T01:55:49Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > There’s a city in County Clare? He’s from New Zealand. Towns can look like cities from that distance, if given enough puffery. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/71 "2013-12-18T03:15:32Z")
> [@Ben-wynyard](#): > > **You would be nieve to think a class system doesn’t already exist within New Zealand**. What you have said about the Thai crown really isn’t what this is about, regardless if he is off the rails he is Prince by BIRTH right and it is given to him by his father and his fathers sovereign alone, even if Thailand became a republic, he would still be The Prince with or without the countries backing,it is his title by way of birth, if they decide to vote him out then that’s for the country to decide. New Zealand is a democratic Monarchy, where the powers if Nobility are non existent anymore, except for the Queen who reigns supreme. But she has no political say, but can exercise her powers in very extreme cases, a Title for Maori nobility isn’t going to make you any richer or any power, nor is it gonna stop gay marriages or your right to be who you want to be. It is simply recognising our lineage and history! Good on Willie for being a hero, so he should get a title which is conferred by the QUEEN!!! Nobility does not mean you are wealthy, nobility is a birth right, or given by the sovereign. As a Kiwi, (and yes, a small part Maori) myself, I take issue with this. Growing up, one of the things that we always took pride in is that New Zealand is one of the most classless societies in the world. I see that in the other thread you started, you noted that New Zealand was one of the first countries to give women the vote, yet at the same time, I also remember the controversy when our Prime Minister was made to sit at the back of the Wharenui, and wasn’t able to speak. As you have rightly noted, the Maori are a tribal people - with over 100 signatories to the Treaty, I am wondering just how you are going to go about giving our titles, who qualifies, and exactly what rank the different tribal royalty will have? I am also wondering why Maori titles need any form of validation by outside of their own community. And I also further note the changes that New Zealand made a while back to the Queen’s Birthday honours list - moving to a uniquely New Zealand listing of titles and honours for those that serve the country and wonder how up to date you are on these sorts of changes. Furthermore, are you suggesting that the Maori King (recognised by how many tribes?) should be given what title exactly? A Duke? A Baron? Why should he accept such a “lowly” ranking when he is already a King? Remembering that in the treaty it is pretty specific that the Maori Peoples are not subservient to the Queen? What you are talking about seems to me to be a singularly terrible idea, and not something that I would support in the least. ---
**Author:** ![Ben-wynyard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@Ben-wynyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben-wynyard)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/72 "2013-12-18T07:53:13Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Our sticking point here is that one does not need to have active, recognized titles of nobility in order to teach your descendants about your family history. > > On my maternal grandmother’s side we were Nagys and Szabos; Magyar nobility. My maternal grandfather’s family has a city named for them in County Claire, Ireland (yes, the city is named for them, not them for the city). > > My father’s side were Croatian and Ukrainian peasants back as far as we can find (which isn’t very far, since no one gave enough of a damn about the peasants to preserve records). > > My daughters are well aware of these facts, and we have documented as much as we can for posterity. I do not speak Hungarian, Erse, or any dialect of Russian, but our family traditions do continue from “the Old Countries” (from my father’s side, that tradition involves drinking too much on holidays). If you want your family history to be retained it is up to you to retain it, and not depend upon the whims of the Sovereign to grant or withhold obsolete titles. I love Hungary , it is my second most favourite country in the world, I want to move there some day. I know the name of the family you speak of, I can’t remember the story a out one of them but quite interesting, did they leave after ww2 … What I am saying is , my grandmother and her family are Maori Aristocrats, and I want a title to give rise to her status, she was a princess by birth and should be given that title. Regardless if people like it or not, a commoner is a commoner and a Princess is a Princess. No one can ever get rid of it. She is what she is . ---
**Author:** ![Ben-wynyard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@Ben-wynyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben-wynyard)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/73 "2013-12-18T07:57:59Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Ya’at’eeh, **Ben-wynyard**. > > I understand your concern. I really do. I’m of Western European mongrel stock myself, but grew up among the Diné in New Mexico and have in more recent times spent a great deal of time involved with the Aztlán movement (cultural, not political). I have close friends descended from Kamehameha. My former spouse was Persian. > > I totally get the fear, frustration, and anger that comes from seeing your culture appropriated, marginalized, sidelined and sidetracked. > > It hurts. > > And I totally get wanting the co-opting culture(s) to recognize your cultural heritage. I understand wanting the NZ government and HRM to come along and say “Yes, you’re right, you have an important heritage and it should be respected.” They’ve done that, of course, but it’s easy to write off what politicians say as merely lip service. Maybe you’re right; maybe a formal recognition of historical noble titling would make it easier for you, and your kids, and your grandkids to really understand their historical culture. > > But probably not. Cultures disperse. People move. Languages and traditions fade. I’m sorry, but it’s the case. > > Embrace your heritage, if it’s important to you. Take what is valuable to you from your ancestry and live it. Keep alive the traditions you feel are important. > > But don’t expect anyone else to do it for you. > > -a- Thank god. The only person who understands exactly what I am trying to point out, your smart, you sound educated to, I am glad you can see what I am truly getting at. Thank you , it made a lot of sense ---
**Author:** ![Ben-wynyard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@Ben-wynyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben-wynyard)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/74 "2013-12-18T08:01:14Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Damn, there really is an [International Commission on Nobility and Royalty](http://www.nobility-royalty.com/). Don’t expect this group of pompous, Eurocentric old farts to validate your tradition. > > Celebrate it yourself. Organize people in your country to honor your traditions. Preserve the Maori language–but publish your story in other languages, so the world will know. Yes they do acknowledge Maori nobility, as they do with Scottish cheifs. However, being untitled is what I want changed ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/75 "2013-12-18T08:24:31Z")
> [@Ben-wynyard](#): > > Yes they do acknowledge Maori nobility, as they do with Scottish cheifs. However, being untitled is what I want changed The thing is - Maori royalty is NOT untitled - they’re titled where it matters, which is within our own community in New Zealand, where and what other titles really doesn’t matter. And IMHO, being awarded some sort of British Isles style aristocratic title would do more to detract from the honour, Mana and legitimacy of Maori title than to add to it. ---
**Author:** ![Ben-wynyard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@Ben-wynyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben-wynyard)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/76 "2013-12-18T08:24:39Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > As a Kiwi, (and yes, a small part Maori) myself, I take issue with this. Growing up, one of the things that we always took pride in is that New Zealand is one of the most classless societies in the world. > > I see that in the other thread you started, you noted that New Zealand was one of the first countries to give women the vote, yet at the same time, I also remember the controversy when our Prime Minister was made to sit at the back of the Wharenui, and wasn’t able to speak. > > As you have rightly noted, the Maori are a tribal people - with over 100 signatories to the Treaty, I am wondering just how you are going to go about giving our titles, who qualifies, and exactly what rank the different tribal royalty will have? > > I am also wondering why Maori titles need any form of validation by outside of their own community. > > And I also further note the changes that New Zealand made a while back to the Queen’s Birthday honours list - moving to a uniquely New Zealand listing of titles and honours for those that serve the country and wonder how up to date you are on these sorts of changes. > > Furthermore, are you suggesting that the Maori King (recognised by how many tribes?) should be given what title exactly? A Duke? A Baron? Why should he accept such a “lowly” ranking when he is already a King? Remembering that in the treaty it is pretty specific that the Maori Peoples are not subservient to the Queen? > > What you are talking about seems to me to be a singularly terrible idea, and not something that I would support in the least. Yes , I was brought up to believe New Zealand was a classless society, which is in fact a lie. Although we do not have the snobbery most countries do, we have a class system. State housing areas vs Middle Class suburbs you will notice a drastic difference. Secondly, NZ was the first country to allow the woman to vote, but it never suggested that woman were equal, it merely gave them the vote, my grandmother wasn’t even allowed in the pubs in the 1950s woman were banned. Also remember, when the prime minister was embarrassed by the tribe folk, that rule of woman speaking on a Marae is dependant on which tribe you belong to, remember customs are different in many areas, my grandmother spoke on Ngati Maniapoto Marae all the time. What happen with Helen Clar, was a disgrace and shameful, she was there guest and that type of behaviour went right outside true tikanga! Laws regarding titles and honours can always be changed. law is not stationary, it’s forever moving and changing. The Maori King, is King within the Kingitanga movement, not anywhere else, he is the caretaker of the movement, at any stage it can be hosted by which ever tribe wishes to take the task on with general approval of course, The Maori kings title within the realm of New Zealand has no governance or supremacy over QE2. That is why his mother was given the title of Dame Te Ariki, because she was given the highest honour within New Zealand which is DAME and then her Kingitanga title, which within the Kingitanga she reigns supreme, but is still subjected to QE2 laws. The Maori King still needs a passport to travel, those passports are granted through the name of the Queen. In the UK a DAME is the lowest rank within Titled class, but still apart of it,I’m proposing a higher title within the New Zealand realm which matches closely to there status. E.g when the Italian king was exiled to Spain, he remained the Pretenderto the Throne of Italy, even though he was deposed, but the King of Spain gave him a lowly title of Count, because there can only be one residing King within a realm. Just like Queen Elizabeth, she can be the only residing Queen, that is why an Ariki could never be given the title of king. An Ariki would be for example A New Zealand Count but a Taranaki Ariki, can you see how both are recognised within the system in which it was created? ---
**Author:** ![Ben-wynyard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@Ben-wynyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben-wynyard)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/77 "2013-12-18T08:37:11Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > The thing is - Maori royalty is NOT untitled - they’re titled where it matters, which is within our own community in New Zealand, where and what other titles really doesn’t matter. > > And IMHO, being awarded some sort of British Isles style aristocratic title would do more to detract from the honour, Mana and legitimacy of Maori title than to add to it. That is where you are wrong, Maori are untitled,within New Zealand we are merely commoners,but within Maoridom we are not, but within European society a titled aristocrats is titled and recognised, within Maoridom a European Aristocrat is titled and recognised. Can you see how, within both realms one is accepted and the other isn’t, Maori nobles are not officially and legally recognised by the crown, the treaty only ever mentions cheifs and Rangatira giving full pledge to the Queen, well if this is the case , then why weren’t her nobles titled?? If we gave full power and possession of our customs and land that we are to assimilated into her realm. So that would suggest that when Victoria took over, she also inherited a class of nobility which she had forgotten to title. Now is the time to fix it ---
**Author:** ![Ben-wynyard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@Ben-wynyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben-wynyard)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/78 "2013-12-18T08:58:31Z")
Can i just re word what i said above. Within the Pakeha/European system An Aristocrat is titled and recognised. Within a Pakeha system a Maori Aristocrat is not titled and recognised. but… within Maoridom, a Pakeha Aristocratic is recognised and acknowledge for what it is, and within Maoridom a Rangatira/Ariki - noble is undoubtly recognised and recognised. So in saying We recognise the pakeha nobility within a Maori context, but the Pakeha don’t recognise Maori nobility within a Pakeha context ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/79 "2013-12-18T09:48:48Z")
Are you talking about Pakeha as being “New Zealand European” or Pakeha as being “anybody non Maori from England”? Because I know for sure that the Maori Queen (I haven’t been in NZ in 13 years) was certainly “recognised” and named as such on the National News, and that I was expected to pay the appropriate respects. She carried great Mana, and I know that within New Zealand she was accorded the respect you would expect of a Queen. So I am not very sure what you expect to gain by giving such personages a title of nobility. And I’m also not sure that you understand and appreciate the British system of nobility - Furthermore, what rank would you suggest Maori Royalty is recognised with? Duke? Baron? Marquis? As has already been said in this thread - Maori nobility get their recognition where it matters, and “giving” a title of British Nobility doesn’t add to that - it only detracts from it as the Maori noble then becomes subservient to, and submits themselves to the English Monarch - which I don’t find at all appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423/80 "2013-12-18T09:50:31Z")
Well, do Maori people accord Pakeha aristocrats an honorific like Rangatira or Ariki? Or they merely acknowledge and use the “Sir” and “Dame” titles the the Pakeha use for themselves? Because, if Pakeha titles don’t need to be validated by beiing translated into Maori terms, why would Maori titles need to be validated by being expressed in Pakeha terms? To suggest that they do seems to me to denigrate the inherent validity of Maori titles. Surely the appropriate demand is that the New Zealand authorities should acknowledge and use the Maori titles in the same way that they acknowledge and use the British titles? Further up in this thread there are posts about someone in Canada who was granted a Canadian title by the French. After the British took over, the colonial British authorities and (later) the Canadian government have acknowledged the validity of that title, and they use it in their dealing with the holder, but they have never granted him a corresponding or parallel British title. Is that not the way this should be done? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-zealand-should-give-aristocratic-titles-to-there-native-people-of-noble-birth/676423.md?page=5)