# Newest, Bestest War Sim **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 27, 2006, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998 "2006-11-27T22:37:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2006, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/1 "2006-11-27T22:37:16Z")
[Playing This Might Actually Make Me Want To Hurt Someone.](http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/games/wargames.html) ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2006, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/2 "2006-11-27T23:29:30Z")
The commentary is a strange mixture of perceptive, on-the-money observations, ersatz but oh-so-hip cynicism and fuckwitted conclusions based on faux analysis. I think this guy’s either not old enough to do cynicism right or not smart enough to achieve meaningful analysis of the subject. Put more simply, he never draws one of the more obvious strategic conclusions about the “Game”. (It has to do with whether to hit the start button.) Either way, the link might’ve been more properly posted in GD or the Pit. JMO ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2006, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/3 "2006-11-27T23:34:47Z")
Damn, that post looks far snarkier than I intended… Apologies to the mods if it stepped over the Cafe Society line. Ah well. Now that I’ve shared the heartburn pages like this give me, I’ll stand by for the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![H3Knuckles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ba8739/32.png) [@H3Knuckles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/H3Knuckles)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/4 "2006-11-28T00:52:56Z")
Based on my initial skimming over of the page, he wants a war sim that _isn’t any fun_. Yeah, let’s see how many companies jump all over that. Lots of potential for profit right there. Better sim=/=better game. ---
**Author:** ![H3Knuckles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ba8739/32.png) [@H3Knuckles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/H3Knuckles)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/5 "2006-11-28T01:01:17Z")
On closer reading, I was whooshed. Having admitted that, I feel that the author’s attempt at sarcastic, cynnical humor fails, coming off as a whiny, pointless, meandering rant about the realities of war. And it seems to have a strong pro-Bush undercurrent to it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/6 "2006-11-28T02:43:20Z")
Eh, it’s not that bad. I liked the last graphic on the page, the one with a Starcraft HUD pasted over a picture of Jack Nicholson, with the caption: “Truth Status: Not Handling It.” ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/7 "2006-11-28T03:46:25Z")
Actually…I think I want some of that in my RTS games! The standard 1) gather resources 2) build tanks and infantry 3) SWARM!!! 4) NUKE!!! games have got a bit old. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/8 "2006-11-28T03:49:30Z")
I don’t think it particularly leans one way or the other. He usually comes down on both sides… I liked it. It had a good beat, and I could dance to it. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/9 "2006-11-28T04:45:42Z")
I liked it. Funny. The Fog of Bullshit is almost accurate enough to be a real feature. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/10 "2006-11-28T05:26:18Z")
To assist you in your mission to engender trust amongst the misogynstic and technophobic populace, we’re sending in Tanya on her jetpack. I liked it. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/11 "2006-11-28T22:09:54Z")
I think it would make a great parody game, but I agree that it would have limited market appeal. ---
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/12 "2006-11-28T22:18:51Z")
**ExTank** do you hang out at Penny Arcade ever? That just went up over there. Politics aside, I do want some of those features in my video games! Namely, the collateral damage, the weapons lab, and factions. Anything where your own units have a mind of their own or something is going to piss gamers off though (and that’s like 1/3 to 1/2 of his suggestions). I think the article is only partially tongue-in-cheek, 'cause some of that stuff is gold. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/13 "2006-11-28T23:33:42Z")
In “Black & White” the creature AI was far more independent than in “Black & White 2”. The creature before was a pain in the ass, just like a real creature would be. The creature now is so milquetoast as to be a non-asset to the game. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/14 "2006-11-29T22:26:27Z")
[QUOTE=Omniscient] I liked it. Funny. The Fog of Bullshit is almost accurate enough to be a real feature. [/QUOTE] They wouldn’t even need it. Just get rid of the red/blue identifiers that let you immediatly know if a building is occupied by friend of foe. Have lots of civilians going about their business. The greatest thing about Age of Empires II was that you had an actual civilian economy that needed to be maintained and defended. That’s what RTS games should have more of! I don’t want to micromanage an entire mechanized division. I want to be able to create a hierarchy of units with a TOE and order of battle I decide and have them function autonomously if I let them. No more CRTL 1,2,3,4 etc. I want to click on a company from the 1/69th Armored Asskickers Battalion, order them to occupy a village full of civilians and they will proceed carrying out operations appropriately (or inappropriately) while I give similar orders to 20 other companies. Forget the stupid resource collection. Public opinion should be a greater factor in how rapidly I can recruit and train troops. And there should be actual supply lines. No more of this building a baracks in the middle of nowhere and bazooka soliders magically appearing while it’s surrounded. Any and all supplies must come from via truck, ship or aircraft from off the map to some kind of logistics collection point - airfield, depot, whathaveyou. From there it can then be deployed somewhere else. If rebels blow up a convoy with IEDs before they reach the depot then fuckit. No ammo or replacements until a new convoy arrives safely. But make it quai-automatic like the market wagons in AOE II. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2006, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/15 "2006-11-29T23:55:45Z")
[QUOTE=msmith537] They wouldn’t even need it. Just get rid of the red/blue identifiers that let you immediatly know if a building is occupied by friend of foe. Have lots of civilians going about their business. The greatest thing about Age of Empires II was that you had an actual civilian economy that needed to be maintained and defended. That’s what RTS games should have more of! I don’t want to micromanage an entire mechanized division. I want to be able to create a hierarchy of units with a TOE and order of battle I decide and have them function autonomously if I let them. No more CRTL 1,2,3,4 etc. I want to click on a company from the 1/69th Armored Asskickers Battalion, order them to occupy a village full of civilians and they will proceed carrying out operations appropriately (or inappropriately) while I give similar orders to 20 other companies. Forget the stupid resource collection. Public opinion should be a greater factor in how rapidly I can recruit and train troops. And there should be actual supply lines. No more of this building a baracks in the middle of nowhere and bazooka soliders magically appearing while it’s surrounded. Any and all supplies must come from via truck, ship or aircraft from off the map to some kind of logistics collection point - airfield, depot, whathaveyou. From there it can then be deployed somewhere else. If rebels blow up a convoy with IEDs before they reach the depot then fuckit. No ammo or replacements until a new convoy arrives safely. But make it quai-automatic like the market wagons in AOE II. [/QUOTE] You’re describing in large part, the game I’ve been wanting to play for a VERY long time. one where the AI works for you as much as it’s being used against you. I would play this game forever. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/16 "2006-11-30T00:13:19Z")
Well, the Total War series does away with the RTS cliches of resource gathering peasants who construct buildings that produce units and allow upgrades. All that stuff is handled in a Civilization/Risk style metagame, and all battles are fought with the units you brought to the battle. No civilians to provide collateral damage though. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/17 "2006-11-30T14:51:38Z")
This thread is shaping up to be a pretty good of “I want THAT!” in a game. Axis and Allies (the newest one) did a good job with supply lines. It actually wasn’t such a bad game. It’d even attack enemies that came by or hide a little bit if they were outmatched. Crap, I should go and play it tonight. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/18 "2006-11-30T15:49:25Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] All that stuff is handled in a Civilization/Risk style metagame, and all battles are fought with the units you brought to the battle. No civilians to provide collateral damage though. [/QUOTE] Well, you can massacre civilians if you want to, you just don’t actually see your troops doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/19 "2006-11-30T16:53:11Z")
Yeah, but that’s not collateral damage, you choose to massacre the civilians to achieve an in-game goal like reducing the population of a conquered city so it’s less likely to revolt, or to get a one-time infusion of cash. The battlefields can have peasants, but they are peasant militias, not guys just trying not to get killed. I think it would be interesting to have peasants moving around in the countryside and townsmen moving around in the apparantly abandoned cities…and the peasants/townsmen might turn into militias based on certain circumstances. It’s especially odd to be running troops around cities deserted of all but military units, especially when you’ve got almost dead troops by themselves…a perfect time for the townsmen to drop some rocks on their heads and finish them off. A more realistic operational war simulation would be Hearts of Iron or Europa Universalis, but those are very abstracted to the national/operational level rather than the tactical or even strategic level. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/20 "2006-11-30T16:53:16Z")
What’s that new one coming out? > **[GameSpy: Supreme Commander - Page 1](http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/supreme-commander/632026p1.html)** > > Supreme Commander - page 1 at GameSpy - Read all of GameSpy's great reviews for PC here This may do some of what you want. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998.md?page=2)