# Newest, Bestest War Sim **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 27, 2006, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998 "2006-11-27T22:37:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/21 "2006-11-30T17:19:32Z")
I thought the article was pretty fair and balanced (heh) up until the last part, when he starts defending Abu Ghraib. Then my what the fuck-o-meter suddenly went off the charts. The game he describes does sound pretty cool, though. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/22 "2006-11-30T18:15:14Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] A more realistic operational war simulation would be Hearts of Iron or Europa Universalis, but those are very abstracted to the national/operational level rather than the tactical or even strategic level. [/QUOTE] Operational level is lower than strategic. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/23 "2006-11-30T23:06:37Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] What’s that new one coming out? > **[GameSpy: Supreme Commander - Page 1](http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/supreme-commander/632026p1.html)** > > Supreme Commander - page 1 at GameSpy - Read all of GameSpy's great reviews for PC here This may do some of what you want. [/QUOTE] That’s a great start. My one complaint is that it’s still a sandbox war. On a map scale that large, I would like to see cities and towns and farms. I want my military operations disrupted by scores of displaced refugees trying to escape from the battlefield. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2006, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/24 "2006-12-01T02:35:38Z")
I believe it’s moddable. Suggest it. ---
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2006, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/25 "2006-12-01T03:45:50Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] I believe it’s moddable. Suggest it. [/QUOTE] Yeah, it’s supposed to be the most moddable RTS ever built. Considering that Chris Taylor’s previous game was Total Annihilation, which is still being modded regularly ten years after its release, I don’t think this claim is unrealistic. ---
**Author:** ![mobo85](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mobo85](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mobo85)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2006, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/26 "2006-12-01T17:34:59Z")
On Wargame Satire: The article linked in the OP reminded me of [this Flash animation](http://www.idleworm.com/nws/2002/11/iraq2.shtml) that appeared in the early stages of the Second Iraq War. Most of the humor is now outdated, however, as the main thrust of the “wargame” is that Iraq actually had WMDs and uses them as a last-minute defense, attacking Israel and bringing the whole Arab world into World War III. However, I think the main thing which is pointed out in the satire is that disposing of Saddam will be easy, but it will lead to a long, drawn-out conflict in the Middle East- which I think has proven itself to be true. On Real Wargames: [This](http://www.making-history.com/) is the one I’m looking forward to. Originally meant as an educational tool, this WWII turn-based strategy game is being packaged to be sold to the general public in 2007. “This is the nearest thing I’ve encountered to a historically credible computer game. Even experts will be forced to rethink their assumptions about the war.”- Niall Ferguson, historian and author, in _New York_ magazine ---
**Author:** ![mobo85](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mobo85](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mobo85)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2006, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/27 "2006-12-01T17:38:08Z")
[QUOTE=Tanbarkie] I thought the article was pretty fair and balanced (heh) up until the last part, when he starts defending Abu Ghraib. Then my what the fuck-o-meter suddenly went off the charts. [/QUOTE] He’s not “defending” Abu Ghraib- he’s just saying what it would be like if war games were actually like the war in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2006, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/28 "2006-12-01T18:50:00Z")
[QUOTE=mobo85] He’s not “defending” Abu Ghraib- he’s just saying what it would be like if war games were actually like the war in Iraq. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > They weep for mistreated prisoners and curse the military. They have that luxury. They have the luxury of not knowing what I know, that\*\* the naked human pyramid and homoerotic torture, while tragic, probably saved lives.\*\* (bolding mine) The author makes the claim there that humiliation and torture “probably saved lives,” a similar claim to those who would excuse what happened at Abu Ghraib. “Naked human pyramids” is an explicit reference to Abu Ghraib. There is no acknowledgement of the very real question of whether intelligence attained by such methods is actually trustworthy, nor any of the other arguments against allowing such things to occur. Considering the lengths to which the author went to bash both liberal and conservative viewpoints elsewhere in the article, the omission there felt to me like he actually believes that torture is a valid tool in war. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2006, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/29 "2006-12-01T19:49:44Z")
[QUOTE=nameless] **ExTank** do you hang out at Penny Arcade ever? That just went up over there. [/QUOTE] Nope. Had a friend shoot it to me. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2006, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/30 "2006-12-08T16:15:01Z")
[QUOTE=mobo85] On Real Wargames: [This](http://www.making-history.com/) is the one I’m looking forward to. Originally meant as an educational tool, this WWII turn-based strategy game is being packaged to be sold to the general public in 2007. “This is the nearest thing I’ve encountered to a historically credible computer game. Even experts will be forced to rethink their assumptions about the war.”- Niall Ferguson, historian and author, in _New York_ magazine [/QUOTE] Hearts of Iron did it first. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2006, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/31 "2006-12-08T19:27:07Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] What’s that new one coming out? > **[GameSpy: Supreme Commander - Page 1](http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/supreme-commander/632026p1.html)** > > Supreme Commander - page 1 at GameSpy - Read all of GameSpy's great reviews for PC here This may do some of what you want. [/QUOTE] Why does this game sound like it whoops a llama’s ass with my belt? This could be one of great all-time games if expectations are met. Also, why does it seems like games haven’t solved how to combine Age of Empires (PC) with Romance of the Three Kingdoms (NES). Really, THAT’S the game we’ve been waiting for. There’s always Spore. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2006, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/32 "2006-12-08T19:28:55Z")
[QUOTE=mobo85] On Wargame Satire: The article linked in the OP reminded me of [this Flash animation](http://www.idleworm.com/nws/2002/11/iraq2.shtml) that appeared in the early stages of the Second Iraq War. Most of the humor is now outdated, however, as the main thrust of the “wargame” is that Iraq actually had WMDs and uses them as a last-minute defense, attacking Israel and bringing the whole Arab world into World War III. However, I think the main thing which is pointed out in the satire is that disposing of Saddam will be easy, but it will lead to a long, drawn-out conflict in the Middle East- which I think has proven itself to be true. On Real Wargames: [This](http://www.making-history.com/) is the one I’m looking forward to. Originally meant as an educational tool, this WWII turn-based strategy game is being packaged to be sold to the general public in 2007. “This is the nearest thing I’ve encountered to a historically credible computer game. Even experts will be forced to rethink their assumptions about the war.”- Niall Ferguson, historian and author, in _New York_ magazine [/QUOTE] That game also sounds good. Damn. I was born at the wrong time. I need more time to play these games!!! ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2006, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/33 "2006-12-08T20:00:38Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] Also, why does it seems like games haven’t solved how to combine Age of Empires (PC) with Romance of the Three Kingdoms (NES). Really, THAT’S the game we’ve been waiting for. [/QUOTE] Don’t the Total War games fit that bill? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2006, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/34 "2006-12-08T21:28:44Z")
[QUOTE=Tanbarkie] (bolding mine) The author makes the claim there that humiliation and torture “probably saved lives,” a similar claim to those who would excuse what happened at Abu Ghraib. “Naked human pyramids” is an explicit reference to Abu Ghraib. There is no acknowledgement of the very real question of whether intelligence attained by such methods is actually trustworthy, nor any of the other arguments against allowing such things to occur. Considering the lengths to which the author went to bash both liberal and conservative viewpoints elsewhere in the article, the omission there felt to me like he actually believes that torture is a valid tool in war. [/QUOTE] The author isn’t expressing his own opinion, it’s a parody of Jack Nicholson’s character’s “You can’t handle the truth” speech in _A Few Good Men_: > [@Colonel Nathan Jessep](#): > > Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who’s gonna do it? You?! You, Lieutenant Weinberg?! I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago’s death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives! You don’t want the truth because deep down in places you don’t talk about at parties, you want me on that wall! You need me on that wall! We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said, “Thank you,” and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don’t give a damn what you think you are entitled to! ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2006, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998/35 "2006-12-08T21:47:00Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] Don’t the Total War games fit that bill? -FrL- [/QUOTE] Not so much. Total War does a pretty decent job of it, but they don’t do much for improving farmlands and dams, at least not in a similar hands-on type of way. The Total War games also don’t have that aspect of building your ruler’s/general’s personal stats to make them beefier. Lines of succession in Total War make sense, but outside of assassinating all the rest of the heirs, it’s hard to control who becomes ruler. Diplomacy, I feel, was handled better in Romance of the Three Kingdoms as well. It seems that personalities shone through in Romance of the Three Kingdoms as well. Rulers that weren’t trustworthy would eventually backstab you, but if you kept good relations and stayed relatively strong next to them, you could delay it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newest-bestest-war-sim/381998.md?page=1)