# Newlywed & father-to-be: Paralyzed in fall on Saturday; kills himself on Sunday **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 7, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345 "2013-11-07T18:13:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/121 "2013-11-09T22:26:55Z")
The only way you’re going to regret the decision to commit suicide is if you fail. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/122 "2013-11-09T22:31:12Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > The only way you’re going to regret the decision to commit suicide is if you fail. Profound. ---
**Author:** ![Gullible\_s\_Travels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de0a6/32.png) [@Gullible\_s\_Travels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gullible_s_Travels)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/123 "2013-11-09T22:53:43Z")
People aren’t REQUIRED to accept any form of treatment - medications, tests, surgeries, ventilators, etc. People refuse these things all the time, as is their right. We may be totally opposed to the choices others make and think that their decisions are misguided at best, or outrageously wrong at worst, but we all have the right to make that choice if we are mentally competent. If I find out I have any particular medical problem today, I can proceed with any and all of the suggested interventions, or I can agree to some of them, or I can refuse all of them. If I’m making what appears to be a foolish decision, the medical team will do everything in their power to persuade me to change my mind, but they can’t force anything on me (unless it’s determined that I don’t have the capacity to make an informed decision). I don’t see this case as any different. We only know what’s been reported, we have no idea of the extent of this man’s injuries or his likely prognosis. It’s very possible that it was a case of "It’s looking very bad indeed, we don’t think you’re going to make it. We can: 1. Put you back on the ventilator and do everything we can but it’s very unlikely you’re going to survive. 2. Leave you off the ventilator and do everything else we can but it’s very unlikely you’re going to survive. 3. Leave you off the ventilator and keep you comfortable, and not do any interventions that have very little chance of being successful but it’s very unlikely you’re going to survive." I’m betting that the situation was far more complicated that what was presented in the news report. The report says the man was woken up and asked what he wanted so I think it’s quite likely that the choice he made was a choice between dying on the ventilator or dying off the ventilator, rather than a choice between living or dying. Even if it wasn’t, it’s a choice I can see myself making in some circumstances. I’m quite okay with the fact that others would make a very different choice. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/124 "2013-11-09T23:20:06Z")
There is nothing scarier than a 'Dogooder" with power. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/125 "2013-11-09T23:48:25Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > There is nothing scarier than a 'Dogooder" with power. Who are you referring to here?? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/126 "2013-11-10T00:29:02Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > You do not have to be mentally ill to want to end your life when it’s unbearable for health reasons. Having worked in geriatric care I can tell you that there are plenty of people who would take their own lives if they were physically able. In the UK, some people have been fighting for the right to die for years. It’s a little arrogant of you to diagnose all those people as mentally ill. > > I’ve been suicidal, FWIW. Your suppositions are unfounded. Before I went to pharmacy school, I read somewhere that the suicide rate is actually highest in the elderly, and didn’t believe it until I started working in a hospital. Substance abuse in that population, especially alcoholism, is way more common than most people would ever suspect. ---
**Author:** ![toofs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@toofs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toofs)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/127 "2013-11-10T00:42:39Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Who are you referring to here?? 😕 I suspect he is referring to people who make the arguments **DragonAsh** has presented in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/128 "2013-11-10T05:13:48Z")
> [@toofs](#): > > I suspect he is referring to people who make the arguments **DragonAsh** has presented in this thread. You get me… Yay… finally. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/129 "2013-11-10T05:28:02Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > You get me… Yay… finally. 🆒 It’s the “with power” part that had me confused. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/130 "2013-11-10T05:39:56Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > OK, a bit of a dramatic headline, but: > > This past Saturday afternoon, Tim Bowers, a newlywed (married in August; wife is expecting) was hunting from a tree when he [fell approx. 16 feet](http://edition.cnn.com/2013/11/06/us/paralyzed-indiana-deer-hunter-ends-life/index.html?hpt=hp_t3). The fall left him paralyzed from the shoulders down. He’d be dependent on a ventilator to breathe, but no brain damage. > > According to the story, his family asked doctors on Sunday to wake him up and ask him how he felt about being paralyzed for the rest of his life. > > Perhaps it’s not surprising that given almost no time to fully digest the situation and figure out what his options are, no other consultations with other doctors to figure out what the medical alternatives are, family there telling him if he wants to live the rest of his life tied to a machine to breathe, he ‘decides to have his breathing tube removed’ that very afternoon, and he dies Sunday night. > > No brain damage, apparently can still talk at least for a bit, baby on the way, still relatively young, and we have no idea what medical advances might be around the corner… > > It’s obviously a very tragic situation, and yeah, there might not be many happy outcomes, but come on - ONE DAY after the accident? Giving the guy barely a few hours to come to grips with what’s happening? > > Am I the only one absolutely disgusted at the family? Am I the only one shocked and appalled that the \*doctors \*didn’t step in and advise at least a few days pass before guilt-tripping the guy into offing himself? I’m with you. Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/131 "2013-11-10T05:42:18Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > So if it’s a new policy somebody’s out of luck. Look on widow’s face: priceless. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/132 "2013-11-10T09:58:28Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > There is nothing scarier than a 'Dogooder" with power. > [@toofs](#): > > I suspect he is referring to people who make the arguments **DragonAsh** has presented in this thread. Jesus, are you a complete and utter moron from birth or do you work at it? Have you read anything I’ve posted? I’m 100% for death with dignity. I don’t have a problem with the guy’s choice itself. But if ‘hey, maybe waiting a couple of days to make sure he’s had time to be fully informed, be off any influence of the drugs that induced the coma he was woken out of, time to talk to specialists, and time to talk to his wife alone’ make me a ‘DoGooder’, then yes, I am exceedingly grateful my family has more ‘DoGooders’ vs the crazed ‘individual choice, even when it’s not!’ crowd that don’t seem to understand basic human psychology. At the -very very least - in that situation, I’m taking a couple of days and preparing some personal video messages for my soon-to-born child. For my wife, for my parents, for my close friends. At the very least. You think he had time for that? You think he even had time to think of something like that? How many of us get to choose the exact time and place of our death? Not the best of circumstances by any means, but given the option of at least trying any number of things before he died, he did…nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/133 "2013-11-10T10:32:41Z")
He had decided prior to the accident what he wanted. He had already made a clear, considered decision and you, for no good reason, think it should have been ignored. You want to overrule his carefully made choice, as far as I can tell, because you personally dislike it. That is extremely arrogant, and not even slightly your business. It was_his life_. No-one else’s. Not even his wife or unborn child’s, not the doctors’, and _certainly_ not yours to make a decision about - although of course, he should take his wife’s opinion into consideration. Which he did. He did, based on what we know of the facts and his beliefs, exactly the right thing, and the only lesson to take from this is to make sure that you get those beliefs put into writing if you don’t want to be woken up and your suffering prolonged in such a situation. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/134 "2013-11-10T12:14:08Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > He did, based on what we know of the facts and his beliefs, exactly the right thing, and the only lesson to take from this is to make sure that you get those beliefs put into writing if you don’t want to be woken up and your suffering prolonged in such a situation. Agreed. It’s also important to note that had Bowers become stable enough to not require life support, it would have become much more tricky for him to have those wishes carried out, because at that point it does become suicide. And as a quadriplegic, he couldn’t have done it himself. The poor U.K. bloke in the linked article had to starve himself to death because the state refused to allow assisted suicide. > **[Paralyzed UK man dies after losing assisted-suicide case | CNN](https://edition.cnn.com/2012/08/22/world/europe/uk-locked-in-death/index.html)** > > A British man suffering from “locked-in syndrome” who fought a long legal battle over assisted suicide died Wednesday, his family said. “All too often, well-meaning able-bodied people just assume that if a person is so severely disabled that he needs assistance to commit suicide, he must automatically be unable to deal with such choice,” he said in June. “I say that where a person has the mental ability, he should have the choice of his own life or death. The only difference between you and me is my inability to take my own life,” he said… ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/135 "2013-11-10T15:46:20Z")
I think it’s important to keep in mind that this is the woman he fell in love with and married; these are the family members he grew up with. There’s a really good chance that their values and priorities are the same as his, and that they know him pretty well. What little we know about him (hunter, fell out of a tree - not a blind, out in the woods hunting during his first year of marriage with his pregnant wife at home) would tend to indicate a _very_ active and independent guy. I’m guessing that the life ahead of him looked a lot different to him than it does to a bunch of folks whose spare time is spent exploring intellectual concepts together on the Web. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/136 "2013-11-10T15:55:18Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Jesus, are you a complete and utter moron from birth or do you work at it? This isn’t the pit. > [@DragonAsh](#): > > But if ‘hey, maybe waiting a couple of days to make sure he’s had time to be fully informed, be off any influence of the drugs that induced the coma he was woken out of, time to talk to specialists, and time to talk to his wife alone’ make me a ‘DoGooder’, then yes, I am exceedingly grateful my family has more ‘DoGooders’ vs the crazed ‘individual choice, even when it’s not!’ crowd that don’t seem to understand basic human psychology. I don’t think you’ve been on or even been in the same room as someone on a ventilator. But in fairness to your opinion you should tell your loved ones you WANT to be on a ventilator long enough to produce a video expressing your views to those who want to view it upon your demise. Please tell them that no amount of begging is to be entertained until you say your last goodbyes. I’ve expressed my concerns over this type of situation to my relatives so there should be no doubt what I want. ---
**Author:** ![Macca26](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/13edae/32.png) [@Macca26](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Macca26)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/137 "2013-11-10T17:35:32Z")
I was thinking, for all the people that think he did the right thing, but did it too quickly… If that is so, what difference does it make how fast he made a decision if the conclusion is going to be the same regardless of how much information he has? I would say that prolonging in such a decision would actually be negative. The only reason a person would want him to stop and consider some more is if they were holding out the hope that he would change his mind, or because they think he didn’t do everything “right” in his last hours (see: “…video messages for my soon-to-born child. For my wife, for my parents, for my close friends. At the very least.”). The previous would imply that they think he made the “wrong” decision after all. The latter I simply find presumptuous and rude. Either way I’m thinking that perhaps it’s rather crass to be judging in this way because it’s not your life to live or die, and while he knew all the details of his situation, you do not. (general-sense “you”) ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/138 "2013-11-10T19:36:09Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > It’s the “with power” part that had me confused. Politician, pastor, LEO, school teacher or principal, etc… & many more who have some actual ability to cause or enough influence to cause people to do what they say in direct conflict with current laws, norms, or locations or etc… I am always 😕 ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/139 "2013-11-10T19:49:42Z")
Point the second which affects my family. The cost of a few days in ICU, the cost of a simple ambulance ride, the loss of many things financial can put entire families on the street due to debt. For me personally in certain cases with my own decision about what to do , this is also considered. I am over 70 so YMMV A device or procedure that prolongs my life but does not improve it but leaves me where I do not like the life I am having to live will be declined. Both my Father & Mother did this & were smart nuff to have it in writing. ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/140 "2013-11-10T23:33:05Z")
I’ve watched long, slow horrible deaths in my siblings due to genetics. They would have preferred the guys life and sad, quick ending to their promising lives destroyed…decimated by Muscular Dystrophy and a crawl to the grave. ( and now dealing with my mom and dementia.) We treat our severely disabled people in this country as an after thought or political propaganda and then warehouse them in shit group homes staffed by poorly paid employees (most are not horrid, but the theft that goes on in there cannot be imagined.) or the tiniest of tiny Fillipino nurses (who are so damn hard working.) who cannot possibly lift a 250+ man who cannot move himself. If you want your soul sucked out, go to a group home week after week for years and see the same people with horrible stories and realize the room you visit has two of the most pathetic stories in the building. (My brother’s room mate was all kinds of fd up. Severe CP and a couple other things going on. He only had one working limb, his right hand. His speech was severly stunted and it took minutes to get a basic sentence out of him. His family moved out of the fucking state and left him there. They are probably pro life republicans.) Oh, and when you go, I hope you like the smell of urine, diarrehea, and cabbage mixed with temperatures at about 85 degrees or higher. year round. Every god damn place one brother was moved to reeked. Dress in a tshirt and leave your coat in the car, even if it is January in Michigan and negative 0. I’m not kidding. And don’t touch anything, it’s a goddamn petri dish. (and I dragged toddlers along.) If you have a severe disability, like my brothers, nursing homes don’t want you because A) you are too much work b) you could live for years in that state c) your on medicare/caid (I still get them confused.) You are a burden. The man in this story could have gone 15-20+ years easily, as he had no underlying medical condition. It would have been a slow crawl to the grave, dragging everyone with him. It was a tough, brutal call. But it was his call. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345.md?page=8)