# Newlywed & father-to-be: Paralyzed in fall on Saturday; kills himself on Sunday **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 7, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345 "2013-11-07T18:13:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![truthseeker3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e68b1a/32.png) [@truthseeker3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthseeker3)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/141 "2013-11-11T01:33:37Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > So clearly you would have been perfectly fine with them pulling the plug without waking him up right? I mean, the family knew what he wanted. Why wake him up? What about you? Do you think it would have been ok if the family just let him die without waking him up? ---
**Author:** ![Pai325](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pai325](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pai325)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/142 "2013-11-11T01:37:48Z")
I just read an article in the Daily Mail (yes, I know it’s not Time Magazine or anything close), and it’s mentioned that he had said on more than one occasion that he would rather die than spend his life in a hospital bed. His sister was an ICU nurse who had worked at that hospital and she talked to him, his doctors talked to him, and he made the decision himself. I think it’s the same decision I would make, and I can’t imagine how hard it must have been for all of them, and I won’t second guess them. [http://http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2496311/Tim-Bowers-Parents-paralyzed-Indiana-hunter-speak-decision-die.html](http://http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2496311/Tim-Bowers-Parents-paralyzed-Indiana-hunter-speak-decision-die.html) ---
**Author:** ![phall0106](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/phall0106/32/5934_2.png) [@phall0106](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phall0106)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/143 "2013-11-11T01:56:22Z")
Maybe it’s not the same, but I remember when I had major surgery a while back, coming out of anesthesia and my brain was like a noodle. I couldn’t put two thoughts together that made sense. Simple things that I tried to remember, to process in my brain, just weren’t connecting. If someone had woken me up from anesthesia and said, “Gee, phall, do you want to make this major life decision AT THIS VERY MINUTE?” there’s no telling what I’d have come up with. This, IMHO, was not a good move on the part of the family or the medical establishment. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/144 "2013-11-11T12:25:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t think you’ve been on or even been in the same room as someone on a ventilator. Jesus, presume much? I’m trying to figure out how you could be even more condescending, and failing. For the record, oh my yes I’ve been in the same room as someone on a ventilator, having had three relatives spend their last days and hours in the hospital in various stages of advanced illness and under varying degrees of treatment. I understand all too well what’s involved. > [@Macca26](#): > > If that is so, what difference does it make how fast he made a decision if the conclusion is going to be the same regardless of how much information he has? I would say that prolonging in such a decision would actually be negative Precisely because \*we don’t know \*if the decision would have been the same or not if he had a more complete picture in front of him, or if he had a chance to take more than a couple of hours to think about it. That’s the whole point. > [@Steophan](#): > > He had decided prior to the accident what he wanted. He had already made a \*\*clear, considered decision \*\*and you, for no good reason, think it should have been ignored. > > You want to overrule his **carefully made choice** , as far as I can tell, because you personally dislike it. That is extremely arrogant, and not even slightly your business. It was _his life_. No-one else’s. Not even his wife or unborn child’s, not the doctors’, and _certainly_ not yours to make a decision about - although of course, he should take his wife’s opinion into consideration. Which he did. Oh for cryin’ out loud - for about the millionth time - I can only surmise at this point that you suffer from crippling reading disorder - I’m not saying ‘ignore the guy’s wish’. I’m not saying I dislike the guy’s decision. Read this slowly to yourself, outloud if you have to: I’M ALL FOR DEATH WITH DIGNITY. What I am saying is, what was the fucking rush to ask him? Why the hell would you \*wake him up from a drug-induced coma, \*give him this absolute worst-case scenario in such definite terms, then ask ‘you want to live’? The whole point is that was clearly not a ‘carefully made choice’. The whole point is that a ‘this is what I’d want’ in a completely hypothetical thought experiment by a healthy, active 30yr old man (who may not have been married at the time and may not have had a child on the way at the time) is not remotely the same thing as having had time to be fully informed of the reality. And don’t underestimate the influence the ICU nurse sister had on the wife and husband’s decision. > [@truthseeker3](#): > > What about you? Do you think it would have been ok if the family just let him die without waking him up? You mean in the exact case we’re talking about here? No brain damage, not in a coma with minimal chance of waking up etc? Of course I wouldn’t be OK with just pulling the plug without waking him up. I have no idea what you’re even asking. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/145 "2013-11-11T12:28:32Z")
I am not a doctor, but I understand that a person on a ventilator has to be sedated. It’s apparently very stressful and panic-inducing to have something shoved down your throat. Given that he couldn’t breathe without it, there wasn’t going to be a time when he was completely clear-headed. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/146 "2013-11-11T12:37:01Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > What I am saying is, what was the fucking rush to ask him? Why the hell would you \*wake him up from a drug-induced coma, \*give him this absolute worst-case scenario in such definite terms, then ask ‘you want to live’? > > The whole point is that was clearly not a ‘carefully made choice’. Do we know his decision wasn’t made before the accident? My Advanced Directives specifically state that I do not want “a tube to help me breath”, “a tube to feed me”, and several other things that some might see as minimal intervention. Maybe the hospital was in a hurry to correct an unintentional error on their part. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/147 "2013-11-11T12:49:23Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Oh for cryin’ out loud - for about the millionth time - I can only surmise at this point that you suffer from crippling reading disorder - I’m not saying ‘ignore the guy’s wish’. I’m not saying I dislike the guy’s decision. Read this slowly to yourself, outloud if you have to: I’M ALL FOR DEATH WITH DIGNITY. Not it this case, apparently. You wish that they had prolonged his suffering for no good reason. > [@](#): > > What I am saying is, what was the fucking rush to ask him? Why the hell would you \*wake him up from a drug-induced coma, \*give him this absolute worst-case scenario in such definite terms, then ask ‘you want to live’? Because, unfortunately, he doesn’t appear to have put his wishes in writing prior to his accident, and they couldn’t just take his wife’s word for it without asking him. It would have been much better to let him die without waking him if there had been another way to confirm his wishes, but there wasn’t. > [@](#): > > The whole point is that was clearly not a ‘carefully made choice’. What are you basing that on? Are you saying his wife is lying that they discussed this in depth before the accident? > [@](#): > > The whole point is that a ‘this is what I’d want’ in a completely hypothetical thought experiment by a healthy, active 30yr old man (who may not have been married at the time and may not have had a child on the way at the time) is not remotely the same thing as having had time to be fully informed of the reality. Yes, it is. It was his choice, and no-one else’s, made with the opportunity for careful consideration (I’ll phrase it like that if you like) prior to the accident, and confirmed afterwards. I have no idea why you think suffering a catastrophic, crippling accident would make someone **more** likely to want to live than being able bodied. > [@](#): > > And don’t underestimate the influence the ICU nurse sister had on the wife and husband’s decision. None, I presume, unless by some macabre coincidence she was a close enough friend of theirs to have been involved in a decision taken months prior to the accident. Can you get that through your head? _The decision was taken months before the accident_. You are, for some inexplicable reason, pissed off that they didn’t change their minds on that decision when the exact circumstances they had prepared for occurred. Why do you want to prolong people’s suffering? That’s pretty unpleasant behaviour. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/148 "2013-11-11T12:52:52Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > I am not a doctor, but I understand that a person on a ventilator has to be sedated. It’s apparently very stressful and panic-inducing to have something shoved down your throat. \*\* Given that he couldn’t breathe without it, \*\*there wasn’t going to be a time when he was completely clear-headed. After they took the tube out, he proceeded to…um, not die right away. In face - just one day after the accident, he lived and breathed on his own for _five hours_. > [@Steophan](#): > > _The decision was taken months before the accident_. No, it wasn’t. If it had been it would have been in writing. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/149 "2013-11-11T13:32:59Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > No, it wasn’t. If it had been it would have been in writing. Really? You actually think people are incapable of making decisions without writing them down? Even though this case provides perfect evidence that such a thing did, in fact, happen? I’m just glad that the hospital didn’t think like you do and decide to prolong his suffering because the correct paperwork wasn’t filled in. That would be inhumane. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/150 "2013-11-11T13:39:20Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > After they took the tube out, he proceeded to…um, not die right away. In face - just one day after the accident, he lived and breathed on his own for _five hours_. Then what exactly is your problem. He had plenty of time to say, “I change my mind!” ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/151 "2013-11-11T13:42:05Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > Then what exactly is your problem. He had plenty of time to say, “I change my mind!” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/152 "2013-11-11T13:52:05Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > There is nothing scarier than a 'Dogooder" with power. I’m totally with you. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/153 "2013-11-11T13:54:04Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > No, it wasn’t. If it had been it would have been in writing. In the _real_ world, making your wishes known to your closest relatives and friends is sufficient. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/154 "2013-11-11T14:14:22Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > I am not a doctor, but I understand that a person on a ventilator has to be sedated. It’s apparently very stressful and panic-inducing to have something shoved down your throat. Given that he couldn’t breathe without it, there wasn’t going to be a time when he was completely clear-headed. A person on a ventilator is often sedated, yes. But they have quite a selection of sedatives they can use. Some are very short acting and therefore on a continuous IV “drip” to keep giving them enough of it to keep them comfortable, but allow them to be quickly brought to normal consciousness by turning the drip rate down or off. They do that so that they can periodically “bring them out of sedation” to perform a thorough assessment of reaction to stimulus, ability to move extremities and also so that family members can talk to the patient and doctors and nurses can explain to the patient what is happening to them. Most people tolerate a vent without sedation for a few minutes, and then begin to “fight” the vent, trying to take breaths around it or cough it out. Everyone’s different; my husband is surprisingly good with a vent, and has in the past been able to go without sedation for several hours when intubated. But he still hates every minute of it, and only allows it because it’s temporary. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/155 "2013-11-11T14:14:41Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > In the _real_ world, making your wishes known to your closest relatives and friends is sufficient. In which case - why wake him up? They could have just taken the tube out. They knew what he wanted, right? Why go through the bother and make him ‘suffer’ by waking him up? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/156 "2013-11-11T14:20:41Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > In which case - why wake him up? > > They could have just taken the tube out. They knew what he wanted, right? Why go through the bother and make him ‘suffer’ by waking him up? Maybe they did it so that busybodies wouldn’t turn around and yell, “THAT POOR MAN THEY DIDN’T EVEN ASK HIM FIRST THE MURDERERS!!!” ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/157 "2013-11-11T14:34:40Z")
Or so they could talk to him and say goodbye? Or because most of us would rather be sure by asking if it’s possible, so it was their own doubt they were assuaging? Whatever their reasoning (which is really none of our business), it worked. He confirmed, he got to say goodbye to his friends and family and he didn’t change his mind and ask to be reintubated as his breathing began to fail. That’s about as good as death with dignity gets. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/158 "2013-11-11T14:35:55Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > They could have just taken the tube out. They knew what he wanted, right? Why go through the bother and make him ‘suffer’ by waking him up? Because, I presume, he was _able_ to be awakened and speak for himself. As long as you are capable of understanding and communicating, the ultimate decision lies with you. If you’re not capable of comprehending or communicating, then legally that decision defaults to the legal next of kin. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/159 "2013-11-11T14:44:05Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > :rolleyes: Why roll your eyes? There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that what happened here is what the man and his family wanted. You just feel, for some reason you won’t actually explain, that they were _wrong_ to want that, and should have been forced to change their minds, even if doing so would have been morally equivalent to torturing him. I’m sure you’ll say “torturing” is an overreaction, but what else would you call performing an extremely painful act on someone that they have clearly stated that they do not want, in an attempt to achieve an outcome they have _also_ stated they do not want? Why is it so important to you that this man lived in pain against his will? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345/160 "2013-11-11T15:10:15Z")
I won’t second guess the decisions that he and his family had to make. It does seem quick, but I wasn’t in his shoes and he gets to make the call. However, as a hunter this is a good moment to double check all my gear and safety practices. [I started a thread on the subject.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=16838106#post16838106) Stay safe out there, hunters. Always use a safety harness when going up. Always stay attached to the tree, and make sure of your gear. It only takes a moment for things to go wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newlywed-father-to-be-paralyzed-in-fall-on-saturday-kills-himself-on-sunday/673345.md?page=9)