# news flash: kids pay big bucks for song theft. lady freedom smiles **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 4, 2003, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/news-flash-kids-pay-big-bucks-for-song-theft-lady-freedom-smiles/172961 "2003-05-04T02:51:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Balle\_M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/13edae/32.png) [@Balle\_M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balle_M)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/news-flash-kids-pay-big-bucks-for-song-theft-lady-freedom-smiles/172961/161 "2003-05-06T19:49:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by musicguy \* > \*\*I can’t believe I am letting myself get sucked into another one of these threads but here goes… > > A songwriter makes their money from royalties alone. No sales, no royalties. Most people that download songs DO NOT buy what they just got for free. Show me all the biased cites you want. The fact is I know too many people with gigs of stuff on their hard drive. They listen to it, they enjoy it, and they have no reason at all to purchase it. So every piece of music that you download and enjoy but do not purchase robs the artist of a potential royaly. > \*\* Just because you surround yourself with lowlifes, don’t tar everyone with the same brush. If I find I like the artist/genre, I buy the CD, especially with indies. > [@](#): > > [I can’t believe you guys actually believe the bullshit that you are typing. \*\* Hello, Pot? Kettle here. You’re black… ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/news-flash-kids-pay-big-bucks-for-song-theft-lady-freedom-smiles/172961/162 "2003-05-06T19:50:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bill H. \* > \*\* > Good one. The law is just words, just like your words. The difference between “law” words and your words is that the law is authoritative, agreed upon by society, and put through an extensive process to ensure it’s fair. \*\* Riiiiiiight. Now, as fair is subjective, right there your argument becomes weak. Law is NOT agreed upon by society. If it was, there would not be anti-sodomy laws, laws that preclude medical marijuana(Oregon voters approved it TWICE, John Ashcroft says no, thus “law” wins over voters), same thing with Oregon’s doctor assisted suicide law with Ashcroft stomping down something Oregon voters decided on, and there are many other circumstances of laws NOT being agreed on by society and also failing to be “fair.” So, in some cases, the law is a punitive set of words, set out to punish those who do not fall in line with those in power, even when those BASTIONS of law who either create or maintain the “law,” are severely in the minority. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/news-flash-kids-pay-big-bucks-for-song-theft-lady-freedom-smiles/172961/163 "2003-05-06T19:53:21Z")
Heh heh. When I call you a thief, it’s because you steal. When I called you a liar, it’s because you lied. These are factual statements, backed up in each instance by evidence. When you call me a troll and a fucktard, it’s because you have anger towards me, but no logic, reasoning, or legal standing to back you. Hey, isn’t that the definition of a troll? ---
**Author:** ![Infectious\_Lass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e56c9b/32.png) [@Infectious\_Lass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infectious_Lass)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/news-flash-kids-pay-big-bucks-for-song-theft-lady-freedom-smiles/172961/164 "2003-05-06T20:11:10Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Mockingbird \* \*\*Oh _really_? Then I assume you can show us some cites for the “fact” that they know American anime(Japanese for Screeching Wildebeest In Heat) watchers will buy an anime video after they watch a STOLEN copy that they STOLE off the Internet. The anime that I download is either completely commercially unavailable outside of Japan (kamekaze Kaitou Jeanne, Oramajo Doremi, Princess Tutu) or has been bowdlerized, censored and turned into something quite unlike the original anime with an innacurate and untrue to the spirit of the original dub (cardcaptor sakura, sailor moon) If they would release the animes I love (in their original forms with subtitles) commercially in the Uk I would buy them in a heartbeat, but since magical girl animes (that I love) are a big minority nobody ever does. This is true of most anime that is downloaded. If the people who produce those animes would release the damn things I would be only too happy to buy them, but since they don’t, well I guess they don’t want my money. Yes I would buy those anime if I could get them. If I could get the animes that I downloaded already I would buy them! I hate having to download them, it takes horrendously long amounts of time and sucks up hd space and bandwidth horribly. Do you think I wouldn’t rather just go to the shop and get it in a nice high quality format with nice packaging etc. you bet I would! Less trouble all around! But it’s the only way that I can get this stuff! (can’t use US and Canadian fansubbers because they do it in NTSC format which is useless in PAL format land here in the UK, and I can’t order from them because I don’t have a credit card anyway, and they always want funds in a US bank in any case, and the few UK fansubbers don’t do the obscure Magical Girl anime I crave because it is so obscure and unfashionable!) So downloading is literally the only way for me. And I am far from untypical. You really should know what you’re talking about before you embarrass yourself you know. ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/news-flash-kids-pay-big-bucks-for-song-theft-lady-freedom-smiles/172961/165 "2003-05-06T20:17:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mockingbird \* > \*\*Oh _really_? > > Then I assume you can show us some cites for the “fact” that they know American anime(Japanese for Screeching Wildebeest In Heat) watchers will buy an anime video after they watch a STOLEN copy that they STOLE off the Internet. > > Can you share that with us? \*\* My cite is in the fact that the sites that distribute the material still do. The companies producing the anime could take them down if they wanted to. I have a question for you though. Have you ever asked a friend to tape something off of the television for you? If you would do such a thing I think you are a hypocritical thief. Ditto if you skip or ignore the commercials on television. You should just admit that you are a thief. Now I don’t agree with the people who say that it should be free. I just think that everyone will benefit if copyright holders decide to distribute it for free. Because if its free many more people will download it than will actually buy it, but more people will buy it in general. ---
**Author:** ![musicguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@musicguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/musicguy)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/news-flash-kids-pay-big-bucks-for-song-theft-lady-freedom-smiles/172961/166 "2003-05-06T20:35:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Balle\_M \* > \*\*Just because you surround yourself with lowlifes, don’t tar everyone with the same brush. If I find I like the artist/genre, I buy the CD, especially with indies. \*\* I never attempted to tar anyone with the same brush. I absolutely have more respect for people that decide to purchase what they illegally download. But from my experience, there are far more people out there who download _instead_ of purchasing product. It’s hard not be surrounded by “lowlifes” (your phrase, not mine)when there are so many of them out there. I would prefer to call them misinformed though. They have simply bought into the current lie that illegal file swapping doesn’t hurt anyone. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/news-flash-kids-pay-big-bucks-for-song-theft-lady-freedom-smiles/172961/167 "2003-05-06T20:38:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UnuMondo \* > \*\*Rather, he should be compensated only if someone out there with money thinks his work is any good. > \*\* Like people with money buying his CD? ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/news-flash-kids-pay-big-bucks-for-song-theft-lady-freedom-smiles/172961/168 "2003-05-06T20:39:59Z")
I have some problems with the cites given for the position that file-sharing has had no or an actual positive effect on music sales. [http://slashdot.org/features/00/12/28/1653257.shtml](http://slashdot.org/features/00/12/28/1653257.shtml) says: > [@](#): > > Nearly two-thirds of those who downloaded music from the Web say that their search ended in a music purchase. Music labels should have been donating money to Napster users, not threatening to sue them and chase the site off of college campuses. I took mass communication research methods in college, and the things that have really stuck with me is that you have to make sure to get a random sample, and that people will often tell you things they think you want to hear. Believing these surveys without question is kind of like wacko right-wingers shouting that carbon dioxide doesn’t cause global warming. They could even be right, but they don’t seem to want to address the climbing average temperature. There could be a number of causes, but they’d just rather ignore the problem. Note that BOTH of those pages cited, including [http://www.strom.com/awards/287.html](http://www.strom.com/awards/287.html) are based _only on surveys, not actual CD sales statistics_. This is incredibley important. Where can we find actual music sales stats for the past three years? That would go a lot farther to define the effect. ---
**Author:** ![musicguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@musicguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/musicguy)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/news-flash-kids-pay-big-bucks-for-song-theft-lady-freedom-smiles/172961/169 "2003-05-06T20:53:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cardinal \* > \*\*I have some problems with the cites given for the position that file-sharing has had no or an actual positive effect on music sales. > > \*\* I think one factor that should be considered is the rising sales of blank media. i’ve only been able to find data for Japan and Europe though and not the US. The fact is though that millions of blank CD’s are sold each year and I find it hard to believe that this is solely because people want to back up their data. > [@](#): > > Bill Guarneri, who has been operating his used CD store Mr. Bill’s CDs in Latham for the past six years, acknowledges that downloading has eroded his store’s sales figures, but feels that the bigger problem is home CD burning. > > “It’s been very noticeable, especially in the last year,” he said. "A group of four or five kids come in together, and they’ll buy just one CD. Then they’ll be back in the next day and try to return it. You just know that they went home and burned copies of it for all their friends. > > “With a decent high-speed CD burner, you can burn a perfect copy of a 70-minute CD in just five minutes,” he said, shaking his head in dismay. “I had one college kid in here the other day, who said she hadn’t bought a CD in five years.” > > **The year 2002 marked the first year in which sales of blank, recordable CDs exceeded pre-recorded music CDs.** [cite](http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=113002) ---
**Author:** ![MannyL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MannyL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MannyL)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/news-flash-kids-pay-big-bucks-for-song-theft-lady-freedom-smiles/172961/170 "2003-05-06T20:56:40Z")
Hi I’m MannyL and I have MP3’s that I got from file sharing programs. Do I feel what I’m doing is wrong? Nope not at all. Do I buy CD’s and DVD’s yep you betcha. What do I download you ask? Mostly songs that I have heard on the RADIO and want JUST THAT SONG, and by radio I mean FM and XM. Also Comedy from Comedians I hear on XM. I don’t see the difference between using cool edit pro to record the audio that is playing from my radio or downloading a MP3 of the same thing. Other music I have in MP3 format is live songs. There is no way to buy them because most artists don’t record their concerts and sell them. but if I want to hear a song performed half way around the world and I can’t afford a plane ticket and a concert ticket why shouldn’t I be able to listen to a song from that concert? While I can appreciate the people on this thread who make money from writing songs or parts of songs, I don’t see how I’m harming you or any other artist by downloading Music. To me playing am Mp3 is the same as tuning a radio to find a song you are looking for. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/news-flash-kids-pay-big-bucks-for-song-theft-lady-freedom-smiles/172961/171 "2003-05-06T21:10:57Z")
The very reasonable **Sterra** wrote > [@](#): > > Now I don’t agree with the people who say that it should be free. I just think that everyone will benefit if copyright holders decide to distribute it for free. You are absolutely correct that there are many solid business models available where the content is given for free, and the money is collected elsewhere. Broadcast television for example, where you pay zero, but have to watch advertisements. And there is a potential for a good business model where mp3s are given away for free, and money is collected elsewhere, say in merchandising or concerts or advertising. (How do you think kazaa stays afloat? Even they don’t do it for “free”; they make you watch ads just like commercial tv. But… they don’t pay for their product; they steal it) However, you are also correct in your implication that it is up to the owners of the intellectual property to make that decision. Not the consumer. People in this thread who are taking matters into their own hands are literally no different from someone walking into a 7-11 and taking a hot dog without paying, then saying “I buy other stuff here, so this is ok”, or “if I like this, I’ll come back and pay”, or “There is no justification for me paying; they should do this as a hobby” (and of course the best one to date: "I’m doing 7-11 a **favor** by stealing this; as a direct result, they will make more money) HAHAHAHAHA ---
**Author:** ![musicguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@musicguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/musicguy)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/news-flash-kids-pay-big-bucks-for-song-theft-lady-freedom-smiles/172961/172 "2003-05-06T21:12:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MannyL \* > \*\* While I can appreciate the people on this thread who make money from writing songs or parts of songs, I don’t see how I’m harming you or any other artist by downloading Music. To me playing am Mp3 is the same as tuning a radio to find a song you are looking for. \*\* But it isn’t the same, Manny. When you listen to a radio and hear a song, the artist is getting paid. But when you make a copy of that song, whether it be by recording it from the radio or downloading it, the artist doesn’t get paid. That is how you are harming the artist. > [@](#): > > \*\* > but if I want to hear a song performed half way around the world and I can’t afford a plane ticket and a concert ticket why shouldn’t I be able to listen to a song from that concert? \*\* I wanted to go to all of the Lakers games this year but couldn’t afford the tickets. It does suck when you can’t afford to do something that you really really want to do. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/news-flash-kids-pay-big-bucks-for-song-theft-lady-freedom-smiles/172961/173 "2003-05-06T21:48:10Z")
I’d like to highlight a quote from the link provided by Musicguy: > [@](#): > > In 2002, the recording industry experienced its second straight year of decline, as CD sales slipped more than 8.7 percent from 2001. In 2002, 649.5 million CDs were sold, compared with 712 million sold in 2001. > > The news isn’t getting better: Sales for January were down nearly 10 percent from the same period last year. This is MUCH more of a hard fact than the surveys provided by the filesharing proponent on a previous page. This kind of number has a LOT less chance of implying something untrue than those survey results. It’s very easy to tell a survey caller that you intend to buy CDs in the future. I deal all the time with people who actually sent back a response that they _hand wrote_, but who aren’t willing to even discuss it further on the phone. In short, their intentions aren’t worth anything. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/news-flash-kids-pay-big-bucks-for-song-theft-lady-freedom-smiles/172961/174 "2003-05-06T21:56:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sterra \* > \*\*My cite is in the fact that the sites that distribute the material still do. The companies producing the anime could take them down if they wanted to. > > I have a question for you though. Have you ever asked a friend to tape something off of the television for you? If you would do such a thing I think you are a hypocritical thief. Ditto if you skip or ignore the commercials on television. You should just admit that you are a thief. > > Now I don’t agree with the people who say that it should be free. I just think that everyone will benefit if copyright holders decide to distribute it for free. Because if its free many more people will download it than will actually buy it, but more people will buy it in general. \*\* No, I do not ask others to tape things for me. Television commercials are not the same thing. You are now trying to project onto me because I have shown you to be a hypocritical THIEF that is downloading and watching anime she hasn’t paid for yet and then has the nerve to sling mud at others. Of course, rather than own up to the fact that you are a hypocrite with a self-serving double standard, you will probably try and shift purely to me and claim that I do the same things you do in different ways. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/news-flash-kids-pay-big-bucks-for-song-theft-lady-freedom-smiles/172961/175 "2003-05-06T22:00:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Infectious Lass \* > \*\*If they would release the animes I love (in their original forms with subtitles) commercially in the Uk I would buy them in a heartbeat, but since magical girl animes (that I love) are a big minority nobody ever does. This is true of most anime that is downloaded. If the people who produce those animes would release the damn things I would be only too happy to buy them, but since they don’t, well I guess they don’t want my money. > > Yes I would buy those anime if I could get them. If I could get the animes that I downloaded already I would buy them! I hate having to download them, it takes horrendously long amounts of time and sucks up hd space and bandwidth horribly. Do you think I wouldn’t rather just go to the shop and get it in a nice high quality format with nice packaging etc. you bet I would! Less trouble all around! But it’s the only way that I can get this stuff! > > (can’t use US and Canadian fansubbers because they do it in NTSC format which is useless in PAL format land here in the UK, and I can’t order from them because I don’t have a credit card anyway, and they always want funds in a US bank in any case, and the few UK fansubbers don’t do the obscure Magical Girl anime I crave because it is so obscure and unfashionable!) So downloading is literally the only way for me. And I am far from untypical. > > You really should know what you’re talking about before you embarrass yourself you know. \*\* Gee. So, even though they haven’t made it available to you, stealing a version of it is okay, and I don’t know what I am talking about when it comes to stealing intellectual property. Your argument boils down to: If they would only release the product in my area I’d stop STEALING IT. I think you’ve embarassed yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/news-flash-kids-pay-big-bucks-for-song-theft-lady-freedom-smiles/172961/176 "2003-05-06T22:08:16Z")
Well, I do have some mp3s of stuff that I have no idea how to find. It’s mostly live U2 cuts (they’ve said that they’re ok with the bootlegs, and I already have their live albums), and comedy bits that are faded in memory. Oh, and Simpsons snippets. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/news-flash-kids-pay-big-bucks-for-song-theft-lady-freedom-smiles/172961/177 "2003-05-06T22:20:07Z")
> [@](#): > > The year 2002 marked the first year in which sales of blank, recordable CDs exceeded pre-recorded music CDs. From just my workstation alone, i have 50 Gigs of Data on CDRs, and our DNA sequencers spit out a CD’s worth in less than a week. Don’t assume all CDRs are being bought for music copying only. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/news-flash-kids-pay-big-bucks-for-song-theft-lady-freedom-smiles/172961/178 "2003-05-06T22:24:59Z")
> [@](#): > > CD shipments last year were down 9%, on top of a 6% decline in 2001…According to Nielsen SoundScan, CD album sales slid from 712 million units in 2001 to 680 million in 2002. CD sales in the first quarter of 2003 were down 15 million units from last year. Or look at it this way: in 2000 the top 10 albums in America sold 60 million copies; in 2001, 40 million; in 2002, 33 million. Nobody knows for sure exactly how much of the decline is caused by piracy, but it’s safe to say the answer is somewhere between “some of it” and “most of it.” Sure, the economy had a down year, but people found enough spare change in their couches to boost sales of MP3 players 56% over 2001. And while consumers bought about 680 million albums last year, they purchased 1.7 billion blank CDs — up 40% from the year before. The clear implication: users are downloading free music and burning it onto blank CDs. [Cite](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101030505-447204,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/news-flash-kids-pay-big-bucks-for-song-theft-lady-freedom-smiles/172961/179 "2003-05-06T22:33:54Z")
Isn’t it a case of the music industry needing to accommodate the new technology that allows people to get music for free and that the whole notion of copywrite needs to be revisited, not just for music but for written work, photography etc. Wouldn’t LP sales have gone down when blank cassettes came on the market? ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/news-flash-kids-pay-big-bucks-for-song-theft-lady-freedom-smiles/172961/180 "2003-05-06T22:39:55Z")
I bet they did, some, but taping an LP was a LOT harder than tagging 100 files on Kazaa and just walking away. Take it from someone who backed up all his records so they’d be portable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/news-flash-kids-pay-big-bucks-for-song-theft-lady-freedom-smiles/172961.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/news-flash-kids-pay-big-bucks-for-song-theft-lady-freedom-smiles/172961.md?page=10)