# Newslash: Ryan hypocrite AND liar. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 17, 2012, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newslash-ryan-hypocrite-and-liar/631742 "2012-08-17T03:04:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newslash-ryan-hypocrite-and-liar/631742/21 "2012-08-17T05:32:43Z")
I realize it’s an old poll, but the GOP doesn’t actually have to make a case that the stimulus was wasted: > **[Poll: Two-thirds think stimulus was a ‘waste’](https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/71942-poll-two-thirds-think-stimulus-was-a-waste/)** > > Over two-thirds of Americans believe that President Obama’s signature stimulus bill was a waste, a new poll found Tuesday. Sixty-eight percent of Americans said they think the $787 billion Am… It’s up to Democrats to make the case that it wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newslash-ryan-hypocrite-and-liar/631742/22 "2012-08-17T05:45:18Z")
Here is Erskine Bowles, Clinton’s former chief of staff, talking about the real Paul Ryan: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/zItICO4iS0Y/hqdefault.jpg "Paul Ryan budget is "sensible...honest...serious" (Erskine Bowles, 9/8/11)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zItICO4iS0Y) And the longer version: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/yX6-OusQZDA/hqdefault.jpg "Erskine Bowles: Obama vs Ryan on budget") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX6-OusQZDA) ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newslash-ryan-hypocrite-and-liar/631742/23 "2012-08-17T06:07:30Z")
> [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > wow Yeah. I get the impression that **greenslime** thinks that “liar” and hypocrite" mean the same thing; for his information: they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newslash-ryan-hypocrite-and-liar/631742/24 "2012-08-17T09:10:40Z")
> [@Euphonious Polemic](#): > > You should really only talk about how Republicans are just fine. Or the President’s lack of a budget. Otherwise we’re being liberal hypocrites. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newslash-ryan-hypocrite-and-liar/631742/25 "2012-08-17T09:18:30Z")
A politician a hypocrite and liar? This is shocking news indeed. ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newslash-ryan-hypocrite-and-liar/631742/26 "2012-08-17T14:58:44Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Yeah. I get the impression that **greenslime** thinks that “liar” and hypocrite" mean the same thing; for his information: they don’t. False impression, of course: I realize that the two concepts are different. But in political discourse–for example, the title of this thread–they are often used together. The flaw in the terms’ usual usage is that if a candidate states a position, that isn’t a lie _until_ his actions prove otherwise. So calling Ryan a hypocrite _then_ is incorrect (he may have indeed been misrepresenting his position, but perhaps not–we had no way of telling). Someone is neither a hypocrite nor a liar if he simply changes his mind between stating a position and acting on it. Even politicians–_even Republicans_–are allowed to do that (and since one of the supposedly horrible things about Republicans is that they never change their hidebound minds, you’d think their critics would welcome a change of position on their part). Consider what a living hell _your_ life would be if everyone you knew held you to every position you’ve ever stated in your life. Or, if everyone you knew called you a hypocrite and a liar every time you said or did something that contradicted something you’d said earlier. And please don’t say that we hold politicians to a higher standard. Nowadays, there’s some doodlebrain with a Razzleberry (or whatever it’s called) standing in the audience of every politician’s speech, googling every phrase he uses and comparing it to every recorded thing he’s ever said, looking for a “contradiction.” If the googler actually finds something he can fasten on, well, then, Twitter post! OOOOOOO! ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newslash-ryan-hypocrite-and-liar/631742/27 "2012-08-17T15:02:09Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, yeah, right now, Dem Dopers are sweating it out, knowing that you are on to them, and might spill the beans at any moment. Worrying that you are going to list all of these dubious projects, what with you having the facts right at your fingertips, and all. The facts are also at _your_ fingertips, so I’m not going to do the work for you: go out there on the net and prove to me that every stimulus-funded project started in a Democratic congressman’s district was justified on an economic basis. I’ll be here when you get back. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newslash-ryan-hypocrite-and-liar/631742/28 "2012-08-17T15:31:05Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > False impression, of course: I realize that the two concepts are different. But in political discourse–for example, the title of this thread–they are often used together. The flaw in the terms’ usual usage is that if a candidate states a position, that isn’t a lie _until_ his actions prove otherwise. So calling Ryan a hypocrite _then_ is incorrect (he may have indeed been misrepresenting his position, but perhaps not–we had no way of telling). Someone is neither a hypocrite nor a liar if he simply changes his mind between stating a position and acting on it. Even politicians–_even Republicans_–are allowed to do that (and since one of the supposedly horrible things about Republicans is that they never change their hidebound minds, you’d think their critics would welcome a change of position on their part). Well, the problem with the way you characterized things in your previous post (and in the one above, btw), is that Ryan is, in fact, a liar. And not only that, he got caught out. > [@greenslime1951](#): > > Consider what a living hell _your_ life would be if everyone you knew held you to every position you’ve ever stated in your life. Or, if everyone you knew called you a hypocrite and a liar every time you said or did something that contradicted something you’d said earlier. And please don’t say that we hold politicians to a higher standard. Nowadays, there’s some doodlebrain with a Razzleberry (or whatever it’s called) standing in the audience of every politician’s speech, googling every phrase he uses and comparing it to every recorded thing he’s ever said, looking for a “contradiction.” If the googler actually finds something he can fasten on, well, then, Twitter post! OOOOOOO! Again you attempt to conflate the two terms. Paul Ryan has been proven to be a liar. He may also be a hypocrite, although the evidence is (just barely) inconclusive on that count. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newslash-ryan-hypocrite-and-liar/631742/29 "2012-08-17T15:40:37Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > The facts are also at _your_ fingertips, so I’m not going to do the work for you: go out there on the net and prove to me that every stimulus-funded project started in a Democratic congressman’s district was justified on an economic basis. I’ll be here when you get back. We’d rather sweat it out, though the suspense might kill us. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newslash-ryan-hypocrite-and-liar/631742/30 "2012-08-17T16:27:12Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > I have no issues with Republicans saying I’m against the stimulus on ideological grounds but if we are going to do it my district should get it’s share. I do. It’s a lazy and stupid position. If you think the government shouldn’t spend the money, have the courage of your convictions and don’t take the money. If you’re opposed to the spending and take the cash anyway, you’ve shown your opposition to spending is just empty rhetoric. At most, you’re opposed to federal spending by other people. At the moment, Ryan’s much-touted credibility policy chops are not standing up to scrutiny. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newslash-ryan-hypocrite-and-liar/631742/31 "2012-08-17T16:41:45Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > Someone is neither a hypocrite nor a liar if he simply changes his mind between stating a position and acting on it. Even politicians–_even Republicans_–are allowed to do that (and since one of the supposedly horrible things about Republicans is that they never change their hidebound minds, you’d think their critics would welcome a change of position on their part). :rolleyes: Either Paul Ryan requested the stimulus money or he didn’t. And in fact he did. You can’t change your mind on facts. He did not say, yes I made that request, but now I regret it. He flat out lied and said it never happened, when we have proof to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newslash-ryan-hypocrite-and-liar/631742/32 "2012-08-17T17:00:13Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Well, the problem with the way you characterized things in your previous post (and in the one above, btw), is that Ryan is, in fact, a liar. And not only that, he got caught out. > > Again you attempt to conflate the two terms. Paul Ryan has been proven to be a liar. He may also be a hypocrite, although the evidence is (just barely) inconclusive on that count. And you, my friend, “have been proven” to be a liar. As have I. As has everyone who has learned to speak. There is no person on this earth over the age of one who has never lied–so calling someone a “liar” is like calling them a “breather.” You must not understand what “conflation” is–I’ve been trying to explain to you what is the distinction between lying and hypocrisy. The fact of the matter is that rabid partisans will call members of the other side every name they can possibly think of. The idea of tracking down something the other guy said, proving it wrong, then chanting “LIAR LIAR LIAR” is as old as human history, from our cave days to grade school recess yards, to the political arenas which are a distillation of everything you would find in those two places. ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newslash-ryan-hypocrite-and-liar/631742/33 "2012-08-17T17:08:42Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I do. It’s a lazy and stupid position. If you think the government shouldn’t spend the money, have the courage of your convictions and don’t take the money. If you’re opposed to the spending and take the cash anyway, you’ve shown your opposition to spending is just empty rhetoric. At most, you’re opposed to federal spending by other people. At the moment, Ryan’s much-touted credibility policy chops are not standing up to scrutiny. You are missing something here: at the point that the money has been allocated, it isn’t the representative’s money to accept or refuse. Ryan didn’t vote on whether his district should receive the stimulus money; he voted on the stimulus package in general. He doesn’t have the authority to intercept (or to authorize) the distribution of _federal_ benefits. It would be a similar situation if Congress voted to build an airbase in Ryan’s district and Ryan attempted to mobilze the local police to stop it. He would be exceeding his authority. You may not like Ryan, but it’s kind of silly to criticize him for not doing something he wasn’t, in fact, able to do. Whether or not he approved of it ideologically, he was presented with a _fait accompli_ when the stimulus bill was passed and the money was sent to his state. Of course he made a big deal about how he would use the money to best advantage. Why not? There’s a difference between opposing the stimulus in the first place and wanting to use the money to best advantage _once it’s there_. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newslash-ryan-hypocrite-and-liar/631742/34 "2012-08-17T17:15:22Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > You are missing something here I’m aware of how the system works and I stand by the broader point even if the wording could’ve been better. We hear this stuff a lot: Republican Gov./Rep. so-and-so opposes the this or that program, but happily takes the money and then goes home to bash the wasteful federal program while continuing to benefit from it and not having to actually do anything to back up his rhetoric. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newslash-ryan-hypocrite-and-liar/631742/35 "2012-08-17T17:22:59Z")
Ryan didn’t just “accept” the funds. He asked for them. He didn’t do so despite thinking the stimulus was a bad idea, he thought it was a [great idea](http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/08/15/paul-ryan-praised-stimulus-spending-in-letters-to-obama-official/). And he was right. > [@](#): > > Ryan’s criticism might be called into question after reading letters he wrote to Steven Chu, the Obama administration’s energy secretary, asking for stimulus funds. The letters were obtained by Boston Globe reporters Bryan Bender and Brian MacQuarrie, who note that in one Ryan actually says he’s “pleased” that the Obama administration had made energy conservation and reducing carbon emissions a priority, saying it will “stimulate the local economy by creating new jobs.” ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newslash-ryan-hypocrite-and-liar/631742/36 "2012-08-17T17:36:47Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m aware of how the system works and I stand by the broader point even if the wording could’ve been better. We hear this stuff a lot: Republican Gov./Rep. so-and-so opposes the this or that program, but happily takes the money and then goes home to bash the wasteful federal program while continuing to benefit from it and not having to actually do anything to back up his rhetoric. The thing he did to “back up his rhetoric” was cast the vote against the stimulus in the first place. That’s all he _could_ do. You say you’re “aware of how the system works,” but then you seem to disprove that by saying that he “happily takes the money.” _ **He doesn’t take the money, because he’s not the one who receives it** _. You also say that “he” benefits from the money? How, exactly, since he can’t take credit for its being available, having voted against it? What could he do at that point “to back up his rhetoric”–run around snatching government checks out of people’s mailboxes and tearing them up? Or would it perhaps be the most responsible thing to do to make sure that the money is used in the most beneficial way possible? Is this at all any clearer to you? ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newslash-ryan-hypocrite-and-liar/631742/37 "2012-08-17T17:38:18Z")
[Politifact](http://www.politifact.com/personalities/paul-ryan/) doesn’t have a ruling on this as yet, but they in their fact checker Ryan scores > [@](#): > > True 2 statements (14%) > Mostly True 2 statements (14%) > Half True 4 statements (29%) > Mostly False 4 statements (29%) > False 0 statements (0%) > Pants on Fire 2 statements (14%) ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newslash-ryan-hypocrite-and-liar/631742/38 "2012-08-17T17:39:30Z")
It isn’t as passive as greenslime suggests. Ryan specifically asked for stimulus money. Or his staff did. Or his dog ate his homework while riding on top of Romney’s station wagon. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newslash-ryan-hypocrite-and-liar/631742/39 "2012-08-17T17:46:09Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > The thing he did to “back up his rhetoric” was cast the vote against the stimulus in the first place. That’s all he could do. He could have not lied about asking for the money. > [@](#): > > You also say that “he” benefits from the money? How, exactly, since he can’t take credit for its being available, having voted against it? He benefits because the money goes to his district and his constituents benefit as it’s spent, and happy constituents are good for the incumbent. He could (as some stimulus-bashing Republicans did) then go around and happily do photo ops for projects that were paid for with stimulus funding, although I don’t know if Ryan did that. > [@](#): > > Or would it perhaps be the most responsible thing to do to make sure that the money is used in the most beneficial way possible? The most beneficial way for Paul Ryan, that is. > [@](#): > > Is this at all any clearer to you? Yes, it’s very clear to me that you’re trying to handwave away the issue. ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newslash-ryan-hypocrite-and-liar/631742/40 "2012-08-17T17:46:51Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > [Politifact](http://www.politifact.com/personalities/paul-ryan/) doesn’t have a ruling on this as yet, but they in their fact checker Ryan scores It’s not encouraging that roughly 1/4 of the things that Obama says are judged “Half True” and another 1/4 are judged “Mostly False” or worse. It means, mathematically, that you can believe him 62.5% of the time. That’s a “D-minus” in school. Though, I’m not aware of any constitutional amendment mandating Politifact as the sole arbiter of what constitutes truth and falsehood. Certainly, one could use the Politifact reckoning as a perfectly reasonable basis for calling Obama a “hypocrite and a liar” as well. Not that doing so would serve any more constructive purpose than calling Ryan that does. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newslash-ryan-hypocrite-and-liar/631742.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newslash-ryan-hypocrite-and-liar/631742.md?page=3)