# Newsweek says Chavez referrendum rigged **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2007, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newsweek-says-chavez-referrendum-rigged/429600 "2007-12-11T10:18:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newsweek-says-chavez-referrendum-rigged/429600/41 "2007-12-14T21:15:03Z")
> [@](#): > > The OP, however, was talking about rigged elections. Thus I pointed out what Fearless Leader might pull next, just like Herr Schickelgruber did. > > For cryin’ out loud, we got BrainGlutton doing his usual “move along now, nothing to see here, let’s all pretend freedom in Venuzuela isn’t at number 223 of the Death of a Thousand Cuts”, and all you can come up with is implying that Chavez isn’t so bad because he hasn’t started setting up gas chambers yet. > > Y’All might want to think about your priorities here. So if somebody was talking about the 2008 election and pointed out that McCain was a veteran - _just like Hitler!_ - or that Guliani talks a lot about national security - _just like Hitler!_ - or that Romney has six letters in his last name - _just like Hitler!_ - or that Huckabee is trying to get elected to lead a country - _just like Hitler!_ - would it then be fair to say that any of these candidates, having started down Hitler’s path, might someday set up death camps? Or would it be more fair to say that Hitler breathed air but that doesn’t mean every other person who breathes air is equivalent to Hitler and the only time Hitler should be invoked for comparitive purposes should be in cases of extraordinary evil? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newsweek-says-chavez-referrendum-rigged/429600/42 "2007-12-14T22:27:30Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] It’s an awful thing when a man has only one magazine subscription. 😃 [/QUOTE] I don’t have even that, I just go online to read _The Nation_ – and _In These Times,_ and sometimes _The National Review,_ _The Weekly Standard,_ and _The American Conservative._ (Ya gotta know how the enemy thinks.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newsweek-says-chavez-referrendum-rigged/429600/43 "2007-12-14T23:00:29Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] For cryin’ out loud, we got **BrainGlutton** doing his usual “move along now, nothing to see here, let’s all pretend freedom in Venuzuela isn’t at number 223 of the Death of a Thousand Cuts”, and all you can come up with is implying that Chavez isn’t so bad because he hasn’t started setting up gas chambers yet. [/QUOTE] How are the Venezuelan people any less free now than they were under previous administrations? ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newsweek-says-chavez-referrendum-rigged/429600/44 "2007-12-14T23:05:46Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] How are the Venezuelan people any less free now than they were under previous administrations? [/QUOTE] Surely, you jest. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newsweek-says-chavez-referrendum-rigged/429600/45 "2007-12-14T23:06:42Z")
[QUOTE=Sapo] Surely, you jest. [/QUOTE] Not at all. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newsweek-says-chavez-referrendum-rigged/429600/46 "2007-12-14T23:30:39Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] How are the Venezuelan people any less free now than they were under previous administrations? [/QUOTE] Because for everything that needs to go through the government (which is more every day), your ID number is checked against the lists of people who have petitioned against Chavez and if you are in, you cannot get squat. Because the number of press outlets (all media) that are controlled by the government grows every day, and the opposition ones get closed left and right. Because you cannot exchange your money into dollars without going through the government which decides whether you can or not (again, checking the lists) Because all prices of basic consumer products are regulated, which has created a serious shortage of, well, everything. And this shortage means you need to go through the government handouts to get milk for your kids and some meat (and here the lists don’t matter. Nobody is getting anything) Because Chavez keeps concentrating power in his person and has defeated all the democratic institutions that keep the balance of power. Because there is a permanent “shortage” of material to make passports and ID cards. Have I mentioned the lists? You are in, you have no passport to leave. In short because the government is in control of every little detail of daily life, and it grants and denies on whim and affiliation. ETA: Because all education, private or public, must adhere to the party program and teach the “revolutionary doctrine” to the kids. Because you can only name your kids from a list of 100 names that are approved by the government. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newsweek-says-chavez-referrendum-rigged/429600/47 "2007-12-14T23:31:15Z")
I’m familiar with all of [this,](http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/americas/south-america/venezuela) but not with how it’s any worse than under previous administrations; and at that, on balance Venezuela still compares favorably with [the U.S.](http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/americas/north-america/usa) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newsweek-says-chavez-referrendum-rigged/429600/48 "2007-12-14T23:35:07Z")
[QUOTE=Sapo] Because for everything that needs to go through the government (which is more every day), your ID number is checked against the lists of people who have petitioned against Chavez and if you are in, you cannot get squat. Because the number of press outlets (all media) that are controlled by the government grows every day, and the opposition ones get closed left and right. Because you cannot exchange your money into dollars without going through the government which decides whether you can or not (again, checking the lists) Because all prices of basic consumer products are regulated, which has created a serious shortage of, well, everything. And this shortage means you need to go through the government handouts to get milk for your kids and some meat (and here the lists don’t matter. Nobody is getting anything) Because Chavez keeps concentrating power in his person and has defeated all the democratic institutions that keep the balance of power. Because there is a permanent “shortage” of material to make passports and ID cards. Have I mentioned the lists? You are in, you have no passport to leave. In short because the government is in control of every little detail of daily life, and it grants and denies on whim and affiliation. ETA: Because all education, private or public, must adhere to the party program and teach the “revolutionary doctrine” to the kids. Because you can only name your kids from a list of 100 names that are approved by the government. [/QUOTE] Cites? ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newsweek-says-chavez-referrendum-rigged/429600/49 "2007-12-14T23:38:46Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Cites? [/QUOTE] Living there. ETA: I mean, follow the news. Not just the little that makes it here. Follow the local news. Even from the pro-government sources. Exchange controls are well documented, I am sure you know about those. You must have heard about RCTV, I hope. The passport situation makes the news at least monthly. People line up overnight and are stamped in the arm, so they don’t sell their places in line. The food shortage is daily news. Do you read spanish? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newsweek-says-chavez-referrendum-rigged/429600/50 "2007-12-14T23:53:35Z")
Here’s the Guardian about food shortages: > **[Food shortages plaguing Venezuela despite oil boom](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/nov/14/venezuela.international)** > > · Milk, eggs and sugar no longer available in shops · Chávez's socialist policies are to blame, critics say And the Telegraph about passport rationing: [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/03/05/wvenez05.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/03/05/ixworld.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/03/05/wvenez05.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/03/05/ixworld.html) Here’s an investment report which talks about the problem of investing in Venezuela, and mentions "Basically, the country has a lot of oil money coming in, but due to strict capital regulations, investors can’t easily take their money out, and for the most part require government permission to convert bolivars into US dollars. " > **[Dave's Daily - ETFDigest](https://www.etfdigest.com/davesDaily.php/?id=316)** > > There’s a lot of bonus money riding on a year-end rally. Today marked the subprime bailout rally that appeared so well publicized in advance so I’m not getting the big reaction but: it is what it is. Tomorrow we get the employment report. Based on... ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newsweek-says-chavez-referrendum-rigged/429600/51 "2007-12-14T23:59:27Z")
On reviewing my post, my last question sounds pretty rude. I meant it as a straight question, so I can link you to the relevant news in Spanish. ETA: And thanks to Captain Amazing for some links in English ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2007, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newsweek-says-chavez-referrendum-rigged/429600/52 "2007-12-15T00:08:28Z")
Here, BTW, is a recent and rather **critical** look at _Chavismo_ from [_In These Times,_](http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/3296/the_trial_and_errors_of_hugo_chavez/) and another from [_International Socialist Review._](http://www.isreview.org/issues/54/venezuela.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2007, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newsweek-says-chavez-referrendum-rigged/429600/53 "2007-12-15T00:28:14Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] Here’s the Guardian about food shortages: > **[Food shortages plaguing Venezuela despite oil boom](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/nov/14/venezuela.international)** > > · Milk, eggs and sugar no longer available in shops · Chávez's socialist policies are to blame, critics say And the Telegraph about passport rationing: [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/03/05/wvenez05.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/03/05/ixworld.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/03/05/wvenez05.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/03/05/ixworld.html) Here’s an investment report which talks about the problem of investing in Venezuela, and mentions "Basically, the country has a lot of oil money coming in, but due to strict capital regulations, investors can’t easily take their money out, and for the most part require government permission to convert bolivars into US dollars. " [http://www.etfdigest.com/davesDaily.php?id=316](http://www.etfdigest.com/davesDaily.php?id=316) [/QUOTE] None of that adds up to “freedom” in Venezuela being at “number 223 of the Death of a Thousand Cuts.” (The second link actually suggests it’s very plausible they **are** running short of passport-making materials.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2007, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newsweek-says-chavez-referrendum-rigged/429600/54 "2007-12-15T00:30:14Z")
[QUOTE=Sapo] You must have heard about RCTV, I hope. [/QUOTE] **All** about it. RCTV openly backed the 2002 coup attempt. If there were a coup attempt in the U.S. and a network supported it, losing its broadcast license would be the least of its worries; the execs would be up on treason charges. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2007, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newsweek-says-chavez-referrendum-rigged/429600/55 "2007-12-15T02:44:40Z")
Short of passport materials, for 2 years? c’mon. You can be caught off guard for a few months, but after that, you are either negligent (plausible) or have an agenda (most likely). As for RCTV, everybody backed the 2002 coup. And they wait 5 years to do something about it? They just wanted their infrastructure, which they confiscated (not even expropriated) without even bothering to feign some legal standing for it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2007, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newsweek-says-chavez-referrendum-rigged/429600/56 "2007-12-15T04:14:04Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] So if somebody was talking about the 2008 election and pointed out that McCain was a veteran - _just like Hitler!_ - or that Guliani talks a lot about national security - _just like Hitler!_ - or that Romney has six letters in his last name - _just like Hitler!_ - or that Huckabee is trying to get elected to lead a country - _just like Hitler!_ - would it then be fair to say that any of these candidates, having started down Hitler’s path, might someday set up death camps? [/QUOTE] If he tried to stage a coup, or set himself up as dictator for life, then yes, it would be fair to say. Nobody is saying anything as stupid as “Hitler and Chavez have the same number of letters in their family names”. All of your examples are stupid and pointless. Rigging an election is wrong; none of your examples have anything to do with anything. Why is that so hard to figure out? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2007, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newsweek-says-chavez-referrendum-rigged/429600/57 "2007-12-15T05:08:16Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] All of your examples are stupid and pointless. Rigging an election is wrong; none of your examples have anything to do with anything. Why is that so hard to figure out? [/QUOTE] Rigging an election is wrong. Chavez has not rigged any elections. What is your point? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2007, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newsweek-says-chavez-referrendum-rigged/429600/58 "2007-12-15T08:50:03Z")
Personally I believe Chavez probably has rigged elections. But I still think that comparing anyone to Hitler for rigging elections is ridiculous hyperbole. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2007, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newsweek-says-chavez-referrendum-rigged/429600/59 "2007-12-18T22:24:15Z")
[Interesting debate, here.](http://www.democracynow.org/2007/12/17/a_debate_on_hugo_chavez_and) What’s really interesting about it is how the pro-Chavez and the anti-Chavez commentator paint such different pictures of the regime without actually contradicting each other. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/newsweek-says-chavez-referrendum-rigged/429600.md?page=2)