# Next energy scam, or is Cold fusion coming back? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 6, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221 "2011-12-06T02:11:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/1 "2011-12-06T02:11:19Z")
[http://pesn.com/2011/11/29/9601965\_A\_Week\_of\_E-Cat\_News\_Flurry/](http://pesn.com/2011/11/29/9601965_A_Week_of_E-Cat_News_Flurry/) Several sources are reporting that small fusion based power systems are going up for sale but that everything is quiet due to lack of patent protection. Not being much up on the physics of such thing but exited about the idea of _“limitless powah”_ (insert mad scientist laugh here) So is this the latest scam, or has someone broken new ground… ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/2 "2011-12-06T02:23:43Z")
> **[Is Cold Fusion Heating Up? - CleanTechnica](https://cleantechnica.com/2011/11/14/is-cold-fusion-heating-up/)** > > Cold fusion is considered by many to be the Holy Grail of energy production: a contained, low-energy nuclear reaction that could theoretically produce endless, self-sustaining, and incredibly cheap energy. Countless scientists have tried to... The last public demonstration, the e-cat remained plugged into a power source the whole time and no-one was allowed to observe it for more than a few minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/3 "2011-12-06T02:41:17Z")
Why would there be a lack of patent protection? The patent office has a strict policy against perpetual motion devices (since there aren’t any), but a practical fusion device, if such existed, would face no such barrier. ---
**Author:** ![Quetzl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c57346/32.png) [@Quetzl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quetzl)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/4 "2011-12-06T02:47:12Z")
Cold fusion is impossible from what I’ve heard. Fusion normally happens at extremely high temperatures (inside stars) because the energy required to fuse atoms together is massive. It cannot happen without that energy - that’s just how molecular interactions work. It’s probably possible to force a couple of hydrogens to undergo fusion in a controlled setting, though, using high-powered lasers. I think it might have already been done, actually. But even if it has, fusion is still incredibly dangerous. People like fusion because it has the potential to be a near infinite energy source, but they tend to forget that you need a way to harness that energy before you can use it. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/5 "2011-12-06T02:54:59Z")
My coworker is very bullish on this, but I consider him a crackpot, so I don’t know what the real story is. He goes on and on about Black Light Power and Rossi’s latest demonstration…along with whatever conspiracy theory happens to be in vogue at the time. He’s lobbying our manager to look into these to as an alternative to our center’s power set up. I don’t know if we should take him seriously or not. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/6 "2011-12-06T03:06:59Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Why would there be a lack of patent protection? The patent office has a strict policy against perpetual motion devices (since there aren’t any), but a practical fusion device, if such existed, would face no such barrier. Apparently Rossi applied for a worldwide patent but didn’t give enough details so the patent was refused. They’ve been granted a patent in Italy, presumably for the same patent that doesn’t give any actual details that was refused outside Italy. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/7 "2011-12-06T03:12:57Z")
This is clearly a scam. If anyone had actually got cold fusion to work we would have heard a lot about it, and there would have been a lengthy process of scientific validation, safety testing, etc., long, long before a commercially viable device was brought to market. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/8 "2011-12-06T03:13:34Z")
> [@Quetzl](#): > > Cold fusion is impossible from what I’ve heard. Fusion normally happens at extremely high temperatures (inside stars) because the energy required to fuse atoms together is massive. It cannot happen without that energy - that’s just how molecular interactions work. That doesn’t mean it can’t be done on smaller scale. See [Tabletop nuclear fusion device developed](http://www.physorg.com/news10806.html). Or [Bubble fusion - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_fusion) The problem is doing fusion on small and controllable scale in a manner that would produce more energy than you put in. And no, it is not THAT dangerous. For one thing, there is no danger of chain reaction. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/9 "2011-12-06T03:19:05Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > This is clearly a scam. If anyone had actually got cold fusion to work we would have heard a lot about it, and there would have been a lengthy process of scientific validation, safety testing, etc., long, long before a commercially viable device was brought to market. Here is the thing - I have followed this for I think a couple of years now. If it’s a scam, then I have no idea what the goal of it is. The guy that is running this has not asked for money from investors, says that he is developing this with his own funds, and is not trying to sell anything to anyone (yet). And if he does try to sell it, he _says_ it will be a production “black box” version that will just sit there and generate energy (or at least generate more energy than is being put in). That’s pretty hard to fake if/when it comes to pass. ---
**Author:** ![tellyworth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@tellyworth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tellyworth)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/10 "2011-12-06T03:26:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Here is the thing - I have followed this for I think a couple of years now. If it’s a scam, then I have no idea what the goal of it is. You could have said the same things about Fleischmann and Pons. They weren’t scammers, they just believed they were right when they were wrong. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/11 "2011-12-06T03:31:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > and is not trying to sell anything to anyone (yet). This site claims to be selling the 1MW plants for 2 million dollars and claim to have sold several after the last October demonstration. [http://www.leonardo-ecat.com/fp/Products/1MW\_Plant/index.html](http://www.leonardo-ecat.com/fp/Products/1MW_Plant/index.html) It certainly looks like a scam, eg the single page website of the Ampenergo company that supposedly has the commercialization rights. But yeah who’s the mark and whats the payoff? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/12 "2011-12-06T04:26:01Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > This site claims to be selling the 1MW plants for 2 million dollars and claim to have sold several after the last October demonstration. > [Новое Порно Видео](http://www.leonardo-ecat.com/fp/Products/1MW_Plant/index.html) > > It certainly looks like a scam, eg the single page website of the Ampenergo company that supposedly has the commercialization rights. But yeah who’s the mark and whats the payoff? You know, people who need 1MW plants and have $2M to spend on them are not stupid. Otherwise they wouldn’t be in the position to need 1MW plants or would not have the $2M. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/13 "2011-12-06T04:42:35Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > That’s pretty hard to fake if/when it comes to pass. This was kinda my what got me looking closer. Rumor has it some millitary branch was the first customer, I’m sure the navy would love small low maintenance power sources, and has more than enough “smart folk” to make a good call about power in vs. power out. How many reactors does the navy own? I’m still waiting to see it work for real, but damn it makes ya think happy thoughts. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/14 "2011-12-06T04:49:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You know, people who need 1MW plants and have $2M to spend on them are not stupid. Otherwise they wouldn’t be in the position to need 1MW plants or would not have the $2M. No they’re not, but so far we don’t have any actual evidence that anyone has bought one. Only Rossi’s claims that a mysterious buyer who can’t be named has bought one. They are hinting that’s military and they can’t talk about it… very convenient way to explain the fact that their first customer can’t be named. ---
**Author:** ![tellyworth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@tellyworth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tellyworth)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/15 "2011-12-06T05:00:04Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > They are hinting that’s military and they can’t talk about it… There’s precedent for military buyers with millions to spend on scams. The Iraqi government spent [$85 million](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/24/world/europe/24scanner.html) on bogus bomb detectors that were basically dowsing rods. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/16 "2011-12-06T05:01:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Here is the thing - I have followed this for I think a couple of years now. If it’s a scam, then I have no idea what the goal of it is. The guy that is running this has not asked for money from investors, says that he is developing this with his own funds, and is not trying to sell anything to anyone (yet). And if he does try to sell it, he _says_ it will be a production “black box” version that will just sit there and generate energy (or at least generate more energy than is being put in). That’s pretty hard to fake if/when it comes to pass. Then why isn’t he releasing enough information to at least get a patent? He should know that once he releases whatever he has, it won’t stay a black box. It will be pried open by every single public, private, governmental, and military research institution, energy company R&D department, and shade-tree tinkerer in the world, legal restrictions or no. And then, if it actually works and it still isn’t patented, it will be copied by companies and governments around the world. He’s working a long con and we haven’t seen the hook in the bait yet. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/17 "2011-12-06T05:08:56Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > He’s working a long con and we haven’t seen the hook in the bait yet. Yep, my guess is they will either start to take deposits to fund the production of the small 10kw units, then we’ll see delay after delay always promising delivery in two months time. Or an outright stock offering… ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/18 "2011-12-06T06:15:28Z")
BTW, this is a good page: [http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2011/12/the\_nuclear\_physics\_of\_why\_we.php](http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2011/12/the_nuclear_physics_of_why_we.php) The Nickel/Hydrogen fusion that they are claiming to occur is not known to occur even in the largest magnitude stars, plus the copper thats supposedly produced and been given over to analyse looks exactly like naturally occurring copper in terms of its isotope makeup, not like the output of a fusion reaction would look. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/19 "2011-12-06T06:30:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Here is the thing - I have followed this for I think a couple of years now. If it’s a scam, then I have no idea what the goal of it is. The guy that is running this has not asked for money from investors, says that he is developing this with his own funds, and is not trying to sell anything to anyone (yet). Step 1: Tell everyone you’re not seeking investors. Step 2: Potential investors say to themselves "He’s not seeking investors, therefore this can’t be a scam! Step 3: Potential investors beg for a chance to get a piece of the action Step 4: Reluctantly agree to take their money Step 6: Profit, and I didn’t even need Step 5: … . ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/20 "2011-12-06T07:04:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You know, people who need 1MW plants and have $2M to spend on them are not stupid. No, there’s no particular connection with being smart and being rich or owning property. Or in this case, actually existing; in a scenario like this I wouldn’t believe in a rich investor unless he showed up and was publicly known as actually being rich (as opposed to being some random guy they hired and put in nice clothes). This whole affair just screams “scam”. > [@Quetzl](#): > > Cold fusion is impossible from what I’ve heard. Fusion normally happens at extremely high temperatures (inside stars) because the energy required to fuse atoms together is massive. It cannot happen without that energy - that’s just how molecular interactions work. Oh it’s possible in theory, and has even been done; [muon catalyzed fusion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muon_catalyzed_fusion) for example. It’s doing so as more than a laboratory curiosity that they can’t pull off. > [@](#): > > Muon-catalyzed fusion (μCF) is a process allowing nuclear fusion to take place at temperatures significantly lower than the temperatures required for thermonuclear fusion, even at room temperature or lower. Although it can be produced reliably with the right equipment and has been much studied, it is believed that the poor energy balance might prevent it from becoming a practical power source. However, if muons (μ−) could be produced more efficiently, or if they could be used as catalysts more efficiently, the energy balance might improve enough for muon-catalyzed fusion to become a practical power source. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221.md?page=2)