# Next energy scam, or is Cold fusion coming back? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 6, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221 "2011-12-06T02:11:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/21 "2011-12-06T08:06:17Z")
> [@tellyworth](#): > > There’s precedent for military buyers with millions to spend on scams. The Iraqi government spent [$85 million](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/24/world/europe/24scanner.html) on bogus bomb detectors that were basically dowsing rods. When I got to the bit that says: > [@](#): > > The Times of London quoted Mr. McCormick in November as saying that the device’s technology was similar to that of dowsing or divining rods used to find water. “We have been dealing with doubters for 10 years,” he said. “One of the problems we have is that the machine does look primitive. We are working on a new model that has flashing lights.” I had to scroll back up to make sure I wasn’t reading The Onion. (Then I had to check the date of the article to make sure it wasn’t an early April edition). Amazing. I mean, I already knew that military/government procurement gets fleeced quite routinely, but this takes the biscuit. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/22 "2011-12-06T08:25:13Z")
My favorite bit is that the claimed “success” run produced half the output power they were aiming for (470 kw instead of 1 MW) and was connected to a 500 kw continuously running generator the whole time. [http://pesn.com/2011/10/28/9501940\_1\_MW\_E-Cat\_Test\_Successful/](http://pesn.com/2011/10/28/9501940_1_MW_E-Cat_Test_Successful/) ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/23 "2011-12-06T08:40:11Z")
It sounds very weird to me that anyone with $2M and whose power needs are high enough to need a 1MW power source is gullible enough/stupid enough to be sucked in by something that is an obvious scam. It would take as little as $5K to fly down an applied physics grad student that would certify what the power input/output is in a test, and, even if the test did produce energy, a further test would need to be conducted that would run much longer than a few hours. Basically - I don’t really care if it is a scam. If it is, it’s not a very good one, and anyway I wouldn’t be buying one of these units unless it was certified by someone I trusted. And if by some miracle it isn’t a scam and there is some weird discovery there that would lead to cheap/free energy, the resulting upheaval would be bigger than the industrial revolution. So it is a “don’t lose-win” situation. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/24 "2011-12-06T08:48:35Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It sounds very weird to me that anyone with $2M and whose power needs are high enough to need a 1MW power source is gullible enough/stupid enough to be sucked in by something that is an obvious scam There is no evidence at all except the claim of the people involved that anyone has bought one. There is no evidence that the mystery “customer” wasn’t just people in on the scam. And I disagree with the “no harm / no foul” analysis, there is potentially promising areas of cold fusion that could be researched, but because there is so many scammers and psyedoscience cranks in this area it’s pretty much impossible for legitimate researchers to get any funding for cold fusion that has real science behind it. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/25 "2011-12-06T13:28:05Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Step 1: Tell everyone you’re not seeking investors. > Step 2: Potential investors say to themselves "He’s not seeking investors, therefore this can’t be a scam! > Step 3: Potential investors beg for a chance to get a piece of the action > Step 4: Reluctantly agree to take their money > Step 6: Profit, and I didn’t even need Step 5: … . You forgot step 4a: After taking the suckers’ money, still maintain publicly that you’re not seeking investors (so more marks can be recruited into step 3). No reason for the con to be particularly long: He’s almost certainly trying to cash in right now (and may be doing it), even if publicly he’s not admitting it. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/26 "2011-12-06T14:32:50Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Why would there be a lack of patent protection? The patent office has a strict policy against perpetual motion devices Technically you are incorrect. As far as the patent office is concerned, a perpetual motion machine is unique in that you must actually build such a machine before a patent can be issued. Any other invention can get a patent based solely on the application. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/27 "2011-12-06T15:13:54Z")
It’s all old news anyway. Perpetual motion was ‘cracked’ in 2006 :rolleyes: : "Steorn Ltd is a small, private technology development company in Dublin, Ireland. It announced in August 2006 it had developed a technology which provides “free, clean, and constant energy” in violation of the law of conservation of energy, a fundamental principle of physics. Steorn challenged the scientific community to investigate their claim and, in December 2006, said that it had chosen a jury of scientists to do so. In June 2009 the jury gave its unanimous verdict that Steorn had not demonstrated the production of energy. Steorn has also given two public demonstrations of their technology. In the first demonstration, in July 2007 at the Kinetica Museum in London, the device failed to work. The second demonstration, which ran from December 2009 to February 2010 at the Waterways Visitor Centre in Dublin, involved a motor powered by a battery and provided no independent evidence that excess energy was being generated." ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/28 "2011-12-06T15:25:41Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The guy that is running this has not asked for money from investors, says that he is developing this with his own funds, and is not trying to sell anything to anyone (yet). Yet _someone_ is trying to sell it, even if the headline has a grammatical error: > [@](#): > > [Rossi Taking Names of People Interested 10 kW Heat/Hot Water Plants — $5400 per Unit](http://www.e-catworld.com/2011/11/rossi-taking-names-of-people-interested-10-kw-heathot-water-plants-5400-per-unit/) [sic] ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/29 "2011-12-06T17:37:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Terr** : > It sounds very weird to me that anyone with $2M and whose power needs are high enough to need a 1MW power source is gullible enough/stupid enough to be sucked in by something that is an obvious scam. Do you go grocery shopping much? I ask because any given week in the checkout aisle, you can see a rack of a half-dozen different magazines, each featuring a half-dozen different articles about rich people who are nonetheless extremely stupid and/or gullible. There’s enough of these people to keep all of these magazines in business, with new stupid rich people every week. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/30 "2011-12-06T17:40:38Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Do you go grocery shopping much? I ask because any given week in the checkout aisle, you can see a rack of a half-dozen different magazines, each featuring a half-dozen different articles about rich people who are nonetheless extremely stupid and/or gullible. There’s enough of these people to keep all of these magazines in business, with new stupid rich people every week. Why would a stupid celebrity (I think you’re talking about those, right?) need a 1MW power source? ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/31 "2011-12-06T18:05:58Z")
The theory of cold fusion is that hydrogen (deuterium, tritium) atoms/ions are small enough to fit in between the crystal lattice of a metal like palladium or nickel. (In fact, hydrogen storage in nickel alloy matrix is the basis for some room-temp hydrogen storage systems). If you keep overloading the matrix with hydrogen/deuterium ions (in the PF technique, by electrolyzing heavy water) eventually you will get a lattice so crowded that the H/D will be forced together and fuse due to the crowding. In fact, experiments claim to have detected helium (fused hydrogen); some claim to have detected neutrons (what comes out of a fusion of deuterium when you get helium); many claim heat. Over the years, nobody has consistently or reproducibly obtained all three, despite honest efforts by serious scientists, especially in the early stages of the CF frenzy. When some experiments have reported neutrons, the level was not enough to justify the alleged heat output. The problems are these: -Reproducibility; those who claim success beyond public, published reproducible experiments claim to have some secret formula (metal alloy, metal processing, precise mixes of this that whatever) that they will not share for whatever reason; -Secretive: this sort of behaviour is classic crackpot/scam. If you want a Nobel prize and a patent, demonstrate in a way that allows everyone to check everything, then demostrate from scratch. It seems every time someone has cold fusion, or a car that runs on water, or perpetual motion, they don’t let qualified investigators near the device. -poor process: the process usually runs by electrolyzing heavy water; you are in fact feeding energy in. Oddly for alleged professionals, there seems to be very little effort to properly account for energy in/energy out, so the demonstrated “excess heat” may simply be from electricity used for the electrolysis. Alleged “it got so hot it exploded once” for PF may have been just a hydrogen and spark problem. -science: nuclear theory is pretty established; if you are going to allege that hydrogen or deuterium is fusing into helium, then all observations - heat, helium byproducts and neutron byproducts - need to be there in the correct balance. Otherwise, you have to overturn a century of nuclear research to explain why in your case, the observed laws don’t apply. Since the demonstrations are restricted and the explanations are lacking, we are forced to conclude nothing is happening. Again, anyone who can show a phenomenon that overturns an established law of physics is a shoo-in for a Nobel prize, and if it includes free energy, they will be rich and famous. They don’t because they can’t because there isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/32 "2011-12-06T18:12:30Z")
Terr, nobody has actually bought one of these things. The smart people with millions of dollars don’t exist. They are fictional. Made up. Lies. This is a pure scam. ---
**Author:** ![Foggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foggy/32/1082_2.png) [@Foggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foggy)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/33 "2011-12-06T18:22:35Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Why would a stupid celebrity (I think you’re talking about those, right?) need a 1MW power source? His point is that rich people can be and are just as gullible as anyone else. Just because they have $2million and a need for a 1MW power source (Secret Island Base?) doesn’t mean they can’t be scammed. ---
**Author:** ![Foggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foggy/32/1082_2.png) [@Foggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foggy)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/34 "2011-12-06T18:27:33Z")
BTW: Could someone give me an idea of what a 1MW generator means in layman terms? How many typical American home would that power? Is it enough to power my 1920’s style Death Ray? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/35 "2011-12-06T18:30:52Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Terr, nobody has actually bought one of these things. The smart people with millions of dollars don’t exist. They are fictional. Made up. Lies. This is a pure scam. If no one is buying that stuff, then I don’t see the purpose of the scam. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/36 "2011-12-06T18:33:50Z")
> [@Foggy](#): > > BTW: Could someone give me an idea of what a 1MW generator means in layman terms? > How many typical American home would that power? > Is it enough to power my 1920’s style Death Ray? Typical homes? I think it’s around 10KW. If you want to cover max consumption, probably around 20KW. So that 1MW generator would be able to power 50 to 100 typical homes. That’s something that no layman “rich dumb person” would need. It’s industrial scale. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/37 "2011-12-06T19:01:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Typical homes? I think it’s around 10KW. If you want to cover max consumption, probably around 20KW. So that 1MW generator would be able to power 50 to 100 typical homes. That’s something that no layman “rich dumb person” would need. It’s industrial scale. Convincing a dumb-rich that she/he could make even _more_ money by selling power back to the local utilities? It’s done all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/38 "2011-12-06T19:17:11Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If no one is buying that stuff, then I don’t see the purpose of the scam. He’s not going to make money by selling generators, because of course the generators won’t work and don’t exist and there aren’t any buyers anyway. He’s going to make money “Springtime for Hitler” style. You’ve seen “The Producers”, right? He’s not looking for investors! Investment is impossible! Oh, but for YOU, my friend, well, don’t tell anyone else, we don’t want more investors, except you. We’ll sell you a 50% share in our business, which entitles you to 50% of the profits. Except there aren’t going to be any profits, so the dozens of 50% partners aren’t going to get anything. Have you ever passed a three card monte game and think to yourself that all the other three card monte games you’ve seen have been scams, but there’s something about the honest face of this particular three card monte operator, maybe this one is legitimate? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/39 "2011-12-06T19:32:01Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Typical homes? I think it’s around 10KW. If you want to cover max consumption, probably around 20KW. So that 1MW generator would be able to power 50 to 100 typical homes. That’s something that no layman “rich dumb person” would need. It’s industrial scale. According to the numbers in [this NY Times article,](http://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2010/08/26/26greenwire-1000-megawatt-plant-in-calif-marks-new-milesto-25893.html?pagewanted=all), 1000 MW of electricity is enough to power 800,000 homes; so 1 MW of electrical power is enough for 800 homes. (That’s just 1250 watts per home, which is a reasonable 24-hour average.)\_ However, I think the fusion power generator being discussed here produces 1 megawatt of _thermal_ power. There’s still the matter of converting that to electricity (assuming that’s what you want to do with it). Large scale electrical power plants operate at around 50% thermal efficiency, and then cross-country transmission losses eat into that even further. I’d estimate that a 1-megawatt thermal source could probably produce enough electricity for 200-250 homes (along with a lot of waste heat) ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/40 "2011-12-06T19:50:16Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > He’s not going to make money by selling generators, because of course the generators won’t work and don’t exist and there aren’t any buyers anyway. He’s going to make money “Springtime for Hitler” style. You’ve seen “The Producers”, right? He’s not looking for investors! Investment is impossible! Oh, but for YOU, my friend, well, don’t tell anyone else, we don’t want more investors, except you. We’ll sell you a 50% share in our business, which entitles you to 50% of the profits. Except there aren’t going to be any profits, so the dozens of 50% partners aren’t going to get anything. In Ponzi schemes, the earliest investors do, indeed, make a lot of money. Be the first! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221.md?page=3)