# Next energy scam, or is Cold fusion coming back? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 6, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221 "2011-12-06T02:11:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/41 "2011-12-06T20:01:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Typical homes? I think it’s around 10KW. If you want to cover max consumption, probably around 20KW. So that 1MW generator would be able to power 50 to 100 typical homes. That’s something that no layman “rich dumb person” would need. It’s industrial scale. Your estimate of energy used is high but probably well within an order of magnitude. Because not every refrigerator is running at the same time (just for example) you don’t have to supply every home’s peak at the same time…except when they all have the AC blasting during a heat wave, which is part of why that situation causes problems. Power engineers call this “load diversity”, and figuring out how to account for it is part science, part art, and part WAG. ---
**Author:** ![Jake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/42 "2011-12-06T20:13:54Z")
Think about this: If somebody comes up with a gadget that takes _some_ power to produce 1MW, but the power going into the machine costs a lot less than the power company charges for 1 MW, wouldn’t it be viable? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/43 "2011-12-06T20:14:32Z")
> [@glee](#): > > It’s all old news anyway. > Perpetual motion was ‘cracked’ in 2006 :rolleyes: : > > "Steorn Ltd … It occurred to me to check up on Steorn again a few days ago, before I saw this thread. They’ve got some old (but exceptionally dull and probably irrelevant, if even correct) technical papers on their site now, and they’re still feebly claiming that their device is viable. ---
**Author:** ![Khendrask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3e96dc/32.png) [@Khendrask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khendrask)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/44 "2011-12-06T20:59:06Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Typical homes? I think it’s around 10KW. If you want to cover max consumption, probably around 20KW. So that 1MW generator would be able to power 50 to 100 typical homes. That’s something that no layman “rich dumb person” would need. It’s industrial scale. And, uh, you don’t think that industries throw away money? Trust me, they do. Especially departments with budgets; it is either spend it or lose it next year. The same for the government and military. So what if it doesn’t work? Then it becomes a tax write off (after spending countless more millions “Debugging” it before scrapping). ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/45 "2011-12-06T21:32:35Z")
> [@Jake](#): > > Think about this: If somebody comes up with a gadget that takes _some_ power to produce 1MW, but the power going into the machine costs a lot less than the power company charges for 1 MW, wouldn’t it be viable? Of course it would. Let’s say it takes 1KW of electricity to run the machine, and it generates 1MW. What you really have is a machine that takes 1KW of electricity to start, and generates 0.999MW once it’s running. There is absolutely no need to keep it plugged into a power supply when it generates excess power. You simply re-direct some of its generated energy back into running the machine. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/46 "2011-12-06T21:53:40Z")
Right. An example would be an IC engine that needs energy to get the system started, which is provided by a battery or a lawmower-style pull cord. But once the system is going, it doesn’t need additional energy. A system that outputs electrical energy yet can’t run unless it’s plugged in to a wall socket doesn’t make any sense. If the system needs a bit of electrical energy to keep the gizmos working, you just take a bit of the output power and reroute it to the gizmos, so that instead of taking in 1 kW and outputting 10 kW, it just outputs 9 kW. It reminds me of how my nephew used to to magic tricks when he was five. He’d put a penny under a shell, then tell me to close my eyes, and when I opened them the penny would be gone! ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/47 "2011-12-06T21:59:02Z")
> [@Jake](#): > > Think about this: If somebody comes up with a gadget that takes _some_ power to produce 1MW, but the power going into the machine costs a lot less than the power company charges for 1 MW, wouldn’t it be viable? Well, sure. But where are you going to get power to put _into_ the machine? And why wouldn’t you just plug that power source into your gadgets instead of running it through the machine first? In order to be a viable source of power, your machine would have to be a collector. It’d have to gather energy from the environment like a solar cell does, for instance. Or it could convert energy from a useless form (e.g. thermal) to a useful form (e.g. electric) like a steam turbine does. But if you’re talking about plugging X watts of something into a black box which then plugs \ **Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/48 "2011-12-06T22:00:00Z") > [@Lemur866](#): > > Right. An example would be an IC engine that needs energy to get the system started, which is provided by a battery or a lawmower-style pull cord. But once the system is going, it doesn’t need additional energy. > > A system that outputs electrical energy yet can’t run unless it’s plugged in to a wall socket doesn’t make any sense. If the system needs a bit of electrical energy to keep the gizmos working, you just take a bit of the output power and reroute it to the gizmos, so that instead of taking in 1 kW and outputting 10 kW, it just outputs 9 kW. > > It reminds me of how my nephew used to to magic tricks when he was five. He’d put a penny under a shell, then tell me to close my eyes, and when I opened them the penny would be gone! Please use spoiler tags if you are going to give away magician’s secrets… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/49 "2011-12-06T22:31:19Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It sounds very weird to me that anyone with $2M and whose power needs are high enough to need a 1MW power source is gullible enough/stupid enough to be sucked in by something that is an obvious scam. It would take as little as $5K to fly down an applied physics grad student that would certify what the power input/output is in a test, and, even if the test did produce energy, a further test would need to be conducted that would run much longer than a few hours. > > Basically - I don’t really care if it is a scam. If it is, it’s not a very good one, and anyway I wouldn’t be buying one of these units unless it was certified by someone I trusted. And if by some miracle it isn’t a scam and there is some weird discovery there that would lead to cheap/free energy, the resulting upheaval would be bigger than the industrial revolution. So it is a “don’t lose-win” situation. The Madoff scam falsifies your ideas about the intelligence of those with lots of money. And he wasn’t even doing science. Energy for nothing scams have been going on for decades. If I were pulling one off, I’d sure base it on cold fusion, which came from real scientists. (Even if they were chemists. 🙂 ) If this guy really had invented a working machine, he’d get a Nobel Prize for sure, and could write his own ticket almost anywhere. What he wouldn’t be doing is selling glimpses and keeping it plugged in. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/50 "2011-12-09T20:44:43Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If this guy really had invented a working machine, he’d get a Nobel Prize for sure, and could write his own ticket almost anywhere. I’m sure Jocelyn Bell would disagree with that although Antonio Moniz thinks you’re correct. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/51 "2011-12-09T22:37:20Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > In Ponzi schemes, the earliest investors do, indeed, make a lot of money. > > Be the first! What **Lemur866** describes is not a Ponzi scheme, and I see no sign that this particular scam is a Ponzi scheme. Only the principal is going to make money (if he does not get rumbled first), probably in the way that **Lemur866** describes. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/52 "2011-12-09T22:47:14Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Of course it would. Let’s say it takes 1KW of electricity to run the machine, and it generates 1MW. What you really have is a machine that takes 1KW of electricity to start, and generates 0.999MW once it’s running. There is absolutely no need to keep it plugged into a power supply when it generates excess power. You simply re-direct some of its generated energy back into running the machine. **Jake** didn’t say “less energy”, he said “costs less”. I guess an example could be if you owned your own dam. If there is some flux in the universe that has not yet been tapped, it’s possible to create some device that generates electricity much less expensively than all curent methods - but it’s still just a transformation with loss. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221/53 "2011-12-10T13:59:14Z")
It’s almost certainly a scam when someone says in effect: “I’ve made the most amazing scientific discovery of the century! But I’m keeping it a secret\* because…” (\*but not quite secret enough that you aren’t hearing about it now) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-energy-scam-or-is-cold-fusion-coming-back/605221.md?page=2)