# Next shithole: South Africa? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 2, 2018, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911 "2018-03-02T18:38:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/1 "2018-03-02T18:38:09Z")
We’ve all seen how well land seizures worked in Zimbabwe. It seems [South Africa is next](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-white-farms-land-seizure-anc-race-relations-a8234461.html). > [@](#): > > South Africa‘s parliament has passed a motion to seize land from white farmers without paying them compensation. > > Passed by an overwhelming majority of 241 votes to 83 votes against, the proposal to amend Section 25 of the constitution would allow expropriation of land without any financial recompense. > > … > > South Africa’s new president, Cyril Ramaphosa, said he would speed up the transfer of land from white to black owners after his inauguration two weeks ago. I hope white South Africans have exit routes. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/2 "2018-03-02T18:40:34Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I hope white South Africans have exit routes. Just…no. You cannot be that blatantly…no. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/3 "2018-03-02T18:57:46Z")
I think the only real surprise is that it took South Africa so long to officially make that move. Like Venezuela, it seems though who have power sometimes pay no attention to history. Since the target of this ethnic oppression is not a member of the typically acknowledged victim classes I wonder how complicit media will be with their silence. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/4 "2018-03-02T18:57:59Z")
More Pit-worthy, really. I’ll move it there. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/5 "2018-03-02T19:05:12Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > More Pit-worthy, really. > > I’ll move it there. \ Yeah, this should be good. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/6 "2018-03-02T19:12:16Z")
Hasn’t the OP posted a million variations on this thread already? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/7 "2018-03-02T19:16:19Z")
Well, I look forward to our SA members filling in details missed in the articles but this does seem like a bad idea in many ways. You can’t just give the land to black people because they are black, you have to have people who know how to run a farm. I understand the politics of not wanting to pay white farmers for land gained through the Apartheid system but you can’t just alienate all the guys currently running the farms without expecting some bad consequences. My utterly communist middle road would be to nationalize the farms and hire the current owners as managers, with required training programs in place to get enough black farmers up to speed. While nationalization can piss people off, I think taking land and just giving it to another person can be a bigger piss off. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/8 "2018-03-02T19:17:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Hasn’t the OP posted a million variations on this thread already? Yeah, but never with quite this obvious racist-baiting inclination to it. I think he’s made the jump from Level 3 (Troll Adept) to Level 4 (Expert Troll) and making a run for the title. [Possible kill screen coming up!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTj7NSHVwSk) Stranger ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/9 "2018-03-02T19:20:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Hasn’t the OP posted a million variations on this thread already? You don’t think a move to amend the Constitution so as to allow taking land without compensation is worthy of discussion? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/10 "2018-03-02T19:29:21Z")
Does anyone know any details of how this would work? Is the criteria solely 100% race? What about a white farmer who bought land at fair market value from a black farmer 5 years ago, long after the end of apartheid? What about farmland that was stolen by white farmers during apartheid, but then 5 years ago was sold to wealthy black investors from the USA? This is a thorny issue, but this seems like a catastrophically unworkable solution. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/11 "2018-03-02T19:41:25Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Does anyone know any details of how this would work? Is the criteria solely 100% race? What about a white farmer who bought land at fair market value from a black farmer 5 years ago, long after the end of apartheid? What about farmland that was stolen by white farmers during apartheid, but then 5 years ago was sold to wealthy black investors from the USA? > > This is a thorny issue, but this seems like a catastrophically unworkable solution. _Passed by an overwhelming majority of 241 votes to 83 votes against, the proposal to amend Section 25 of the constitution would allow expropriation of land without any financial recompense._ There doesn’t appear to be a lot of nuance in this proposal. It is indeed unworkable and would likely catastrophic if enacted especially given the existing water challenges in the country, _which would affect all South Africans of any ethnicity or affiliation_. But hey, let’s just worry about the whites. The rest of ‘them’ deserve to live in a “shithole” because…well, we know why. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/12 "2018-03-02T19:47:08Z")
Here’s a Bloomberg article that gives some background info on SA land reform: [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-01/why-land-seizure-is-back-in-news-in-south-africa-quicktake-q-a](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-01/why-land-seizure-is-back-in-news-in-south-africa-quicktake-q-a) MaxTheVool, I think your examples are enough outside the norm for them to not be very important. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/13 "2018-03-02T19:49:57Z")
**Quartz** ’s other threads. Yes, this is a topic is one he visits every few months. [ul] [li][Is South Africa about to follow Zimbabwe?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=820953) - 03-06-2017[/li][li][What if: race war in South Africa](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=826122) - 05-13-2017[/li][li][South Africa going the way of Zimbabwe?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=841218) - 11-08-2017[/li][li]Next shithole: South Africa? - This one today[/li][/ul] Yet South Africa endures…Odd. Anyhoo, while legislators can vote for these changes, I can’t see how unreimbursed land appropriation can survive legal challenges in the courts. That’s a guess, but it would be helpful if we had an informed South African opinion here. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/14 "2018-03-02T19:55:00Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > \*\* > Anyhoo, while legislators can vote for these changes, I can’t see how unreimbursed land appropriation can survive legal challenges in the courts. That’s a guess, but it would be helpful if we had an informed South African opinion here. The changes they are proposing are to change the Constitution so that it would survive legal challenge in the court. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/15 "2018-03-02T19:59:27Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Just…no. You cannot be that blatantly…no. No, I’m not being racist, just sanguine. We’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/16 "2018-03-02T20:03:15Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > **Quartz** ’s other threads. Yes, this is a topic is one he visits every few months. > [ul] > [li][Is South Africa about to follow Zimbabwe?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=820953) - 03-06-2017[/li][li][What if: race war in South Africa](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=826122) - 05-13-2017[/li][li][South Africa going the way of Zimbabwe?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=820953) - 11-08-2017[/li][li]Next shithole: South Africa? - This one today[/li][/ul] > Yet South Africa endures…Odd. You know the part of John Oliver’s schtick where he [makes fun of the British for formerly being provincial exploitative racists](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CesHr99ezWE&t=1m11s)? **Quartz** seems determined to maintain that image for the current generation. Exhibit B: > [@Quartz](#): > > No, I’m not being racist, just sanguine. Just imagine everything the poster writes as being narrated by Oliver and it’s quite apparent, and even somewhat amusing. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/17 "2018-03-02T20:05:41Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The changes they are proposing are to change the Constitution so that it would survive legal challenge in the court. Thanks for the bloomberg link. Reading it now. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/18 "2018-03-02T20:27:52Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > You know the part of John Oliver’s schtick where he [makes fun of the British for formerly being provincial exploitative racists](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CesHr99ezWE&t=1m11s)? **Quartz** seems determined to maintain that image for the current generation. So it’s always racist for a white person to criticise a bad decision by a black politician? So it’s always racist for a white person to express concern for a black country? Look in the mirror and you’ll see the real racist. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/19 "2018-03-02T20:38:00Z")
I think the racist part was “I hope white South Africans have exit routes”. Moving this to the Pit was a little knee jerk but you sure made it easy. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/20 "2018-03-02T20:43:14Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > So it’s always racist for a white person to criticise a bad decision by a black politician? So it’s always racist for a white person to express concern for a black country? Look in the mirror and you’ll see the real racist. You’re not being criticized for a single post. It’s a series of posts, over many years, that have demonstrated what appears to me to be a fear of black people. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911.md?page=2)