# Next shithole: South Africa? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 2, 2018, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911 "2018-03-02T18:38:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/61 "2018-03-03T12:15:28Z")
Oh, and as for the actual matter under discussion - it’s not a move I favour, but it’s perfectly understandable populist politics, and is also the end result of White farmers overwhelmingly rejecting the willing seller model. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/62 "2018-03-03T12:34:45Z")
What is the willing seller model? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/63 "2018-03-03T13:00:46Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > What is the willing seller model? More fully, it’s the “willing seller, willing buyer” [approach](https://businesstech.co.za/news/general/124981/parliament-approves-land-expropriation-bill-ends-willing-buyer-willing-seller-policy/). The opposite of “eminent domain” land transfer, basically. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/64 "2018-03-03T13:24:50Z")
Does not being willing to sell constitute rejecting a willing seller approach? Or am I misunderstanding what you mean by saying they rejected the willing seller approach? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/65 "2018-03-03T13:33:18Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > That’s a weird train of thought. If the land seizures are targeted at the white population and impacts them in the most direct way then why on earth would the OP _not_ focus on the white population? > > Count me in as another who doesn’t read the OP as particularly racists or troublesome. Given the widespread corruption, poverty and conflict in Africa I would rather that South Africa succeeded and not to go the way of Zimbabwe but policies like these are more likely to harm than help. For one thing it sets the tone for land discussions. A disgruntled population can read this a justification for taking land themselves without due process, that can’t be good. Context is a factor. There are hundreds of situations where a group of people are facing oppression. But if the only situations a person views as a problem or thinks are worth discussing are the ones where the victims are white then there’s a racial pattern to their posts, even if the issues they raise are true. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/66 "2018-03-03T14:52:17Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > You didn’t just criticize what is objectively a poorly conceived proposal; you expressed your concern specifically on the impact of “white South Africans” rather than to the country as a whole. How many black South Africans are facing having their land confiscated? ---
**Author:** ![WilyQuixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@WilyQuixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WilyQuixote)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/67 "2018-03-03T15:24:39Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > How many black South Africans are facing having their land confiscated? Without compensation? The same as whites i.e. zero. It’s a parliamentary motion that was adopted earlier this week. That’s it. Not a constitutional amendment. Not a statute. Not even a single fucking regulation. ---
**Author:** ![WilyQuixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@WilyQuixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WilyQuixote)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/68 "2018-03-03T15:40:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > As for the topic of South African government policy, I look forward to any contributions from our South African posters. 😕 You said this several times since I first posted. You do realise that I am South African right? It’s right there in my location field. I’m no expert on the subject, and I’m trying not to sound arrogant,\* but as a duly admitted attorney, notary and conveyancer I’m probably the closest thing to an expert in this thread. \*Yeah, I probably failed at that. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/69 "2018-03-03T15:52:13Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Context is a factor. There are hundreds of situations where a group of people are facing oppression. But if the only situations a person views as a problem or thinks are worth discussing are the ones where the victims are white then there’s a racial pattern to their posts, even if the issues they raise are true. OK, I don’t pay enough attention to to a posters’s history. The only thing that really matters to me is, “is it true”? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/70 "2018-03-03T16:01:10Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Does not being willing to sell constitute rejecting a willing seller approach? Or am I misunderstanding what you mean by saying they rejected the willing seller approach? No, that’s what I mean. More specifically, rejected selling their land to blacks. > [@Lumpy](#): > > How many black South Africans are facing having their land confiscated? How many blacks own land in the first place? 73% of agricultural land in SA is white-owned, and that includes nearly all the best land. Whites are 8% of the population overall. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/71 "2018-03-03T16:07:12Z")
> [@WilyQuixote](#): > > 😕 You said this several times since I first posted. You do realise that I am South African right? It’s right there in my location field. I’m no expert on the subject, and I’m trying not to sound arrogant,\* but as a duly admitted attorney, notary and conveyancer I’m probably the closest thing to an expert in this thread. > > \*Yeah, I probably failed at that. Thanks, I did not know that, and now I do. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/72 "2018-03-03T16:09:48Z")
> [@WilyQuixote](#): > > Without compensation? The same as whites i.e. zero. > > It’s a parliamentary motion that was adopted earlier this week. That’s it. > > Not a constitutional amendment. > Not a statute. > Not even a single fucking regulation. Are there property taxes, or other taxes, on these farm properties? Have the farmers in possession been paying those all along? Or is this more of an adverse possession type of thing on the farmers part? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/73 "2018-03-03T16:37:31Z")
> [@WilyQuixote](#): > > You do realise that I am South African right? It’s right there in my location field. FYI, I only see Members’ locations. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/74 "2018-03-03T16:38:13Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > FYI, I only see Members’ locations. Me too – all I see for WQ is “Guest” and the join date. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/75 "2018-03-03T16:42:37Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Try 2a with a hint of 2b. I do not see the Boers (in particular) taking this lying down. There will be blood spilled. I’m not eager for it, just resigned to it. Now I’m genuinely confused. You said > [@Quartz](#): > > No, I’m not being racist, just sanguine. So, now you are…”consisting of or relating to blood” and “bloodthirsty”? Is this a subtle way to inform readers that you’ve succombed to vampirism? > [@MrDibble](#): > > Do you not get tired of starting [the same](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=841218&highlight=South+Africa)[idiotic](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=826122&highlight=South+Africa) [thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=820953&highlight=South+Africa) over and over, you tedious fuck? Perhaps he is suffering from [anterograde amnesia](http://factorialist.com/anterograde-amnesia/)? It would explain a great number of things. > [@Lumpy](#): > > How many black South Africans are facing having their land confiscated? The overall impact isn’t just on the land owners whose property is confiscated and ‘redistributed’, but on the impact of the agricultural economy of South Africa, particularly given the paucity of arable land and difficulties with gerting sufficient water for irrigation requiring careful and experienced managment or resources. The comparison has been made repeatedly to the experience of land expropriation in Zimbabwe under the Mugabe regime, which is at least credible comparison that demonstrates what can go dramatically wrong with this kind of scheme, and which was a disaster that nation as a whole. Again, the o.p. has chosen to frame it in the very specific context of how it would impact a segment that is less than 10% of the population and in a way that implies persecution and danger (“I hope the white South Africans have exit routes,”) and has followed up his statement with [mangled language](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20824145&postcount=1), [tortured analogies](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20823379&postcount=1), and the patronizing claim that [he actually praises black people frequently](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20824145&postcount=1) so he cannot be a racist. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/76 "2018-03-03T16:46:01Z")
You have some broken links, **Stranger.** ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/77 "2018-03-03T17:07:04Z")
Well, just look upthread for examples that the o.p. has not only framed the discussion in a prejudiced and disingenuous fashion but also hasn’t really made much sense in defending whatever position it is he is trying to take. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/78 "2018-03-03T18:49:05Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Now I’m genuinely confused. You said > So, now you are…”consisting of or relating to blood” and “bloodthirsty”? Is this a subtle way to inform readers that you’ve succombed to vampirism? It’s pretty clear he misused the word. Now why he won’t just own up to it, who the hell knows. I’m not sure what word he was thinking of, but I’m guessing something that means “realistic.” “Bloodthirsty” makes absolutely no sense in that context, and it’s [an archaic usage at that.](https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/sanguine). I’ve never heard it mean anything other than “optimistic” in the manner it was used. ---
**Author:** ![WilyQuixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@WilyQuixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WilyQuixote)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/79 "2018-03-03T18:51:24Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Are there property taxes, or other taxes, on these farm properties? Rates (taxes based on the value of the immovable property payable to the local authority) are imposed on owners of all immovable properties whether residential, commercial, agricultural or government. > [@](#): > > Have the farmers in possession been paying those all along? No figures, but I would imagine a majority have been doing so. > [@](#): > > Or is this more of an adverse possession type of thing on the farmers part? In terms of SA law relating to adverse possession or acquisitive prescription, under which a person can gain the right to a piece of land if the person has been occupying the land continuously, openly and without interruption as owner for a period of 30 years. If this is what you are referring to, then no. The overwhelming majority of white farmers are commercial farmers who are the holders of a registered title deed. ---
**Author:** ![WilyQuixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@WilyQuixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WilyQuixote)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/80 "2018-03-03T18:52:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > FYI, I only see Members’ locations. Yeah, I momentarily forgot it depends on what skin you’re using. Sorry **iiandyiii**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911.md?page=5)