# Next shithole: South Africa? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 2, 2018, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911 "2018-03-02T18:38:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![WilyQuixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@WilyQuixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WilyQuixote)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/81 "2018-03-03T19:19:18Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > How many blacks own land in the first place? 73% of agricultural land in SA is white-owned, and that includes nearly all the best land. Whites are 8% of the population overall. The 73% figure is usually taken from an AGRI SA land audit released last year. Whilst I do not doubt that rural land ownership is heavily skewed in favour of whites, this is a flawed report and makes a lot of questionable assumptions. Its nowhere near accurate and the authors themselves will be the first to concede that further investigation is required. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/82 "2018-03-03T19:25:50Z")
> [@WilyQuixote](#): > > Yeah, I momentarily forgot it depends on what skin you’re using. Sorry **iiandyiii**. No problem! Because I’m sure South Africans don’t tire of outsiders telling you how to run your country, here’s an idea that popped into my head: Families/tenants/workers that have been working on white-owned land for times dating back to apartheid should get ownership shares in that land. I don’t mean any land transfer or division, but rather the big chunk of farmland owned 100% by a white family becomes ~70% or so owned by the white family, with the remaining ownership divided up by those long-term workers/tenants/etc. No land is divided, but rather they now own shares of the entire farm, and thus share in the profit (and thus they’d have to have access to the accounting books to track and check the finances periodically). Or they can choose to sell their shares. Don’t know if this is feasible at all, and maybe someone’s suggested this before, but I thought I’d throw my ass-derived idea out there for the South Africans to shit all over. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/83 "2018-03-03T19:26:10Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Oh? I thought you were “sanguine”. Or, do you not understand what that word means? > > Stranger > [@pulykamell](#): > > It’s pretty clear he misused the word. Now why he won’t just own up to it, who the hell knows. I’m not sure what word he was thinking of, but I’m guessing something that means “realistic.” “Bloodthirsty” makes absolutely no sense in that context, and it’s [an archaic usage at that.](https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/sanguine). I’ve never heard it mean anything other than “optimistic” in the manner it was used. Based on Firefly’s Dictionary of Zoe: > [@](#): > > Sanguine. Hopeful. Plus, point of interest, it also means “bloody”. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/84 "2018-03-03T20:01:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Me too – all I see for WQ is “Guest” and the join date. And on Tapatalk you see nothing. ---
**Author:** ![WilyQuixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@WilyQuixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WilyQuixote)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/85 "2018-03-04T06:58:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Families/tenants/workers that have been working on white-owned land for times dating back to apartheid should get ownership shares in that land. I don’t mean any land transfer or division, but rather the big chunk of farmland owned 100% by a white family becomes ~70% or so owned by the white family, with the remaining ownership divided up by those long-term workers/tenants/etc. No land is divided, but rather they now own shares of the entire farm, and thus share in the profit (and thus they’d have to have access to the accounting books to track and check the finances periodically). Or they can choose to sell their shares. That has been done and highlighted in a few articles - I’ll see if I can find any online that are informative and not just fluffy filler. However, the problem is not just farm workers with insecure tenure, but also skewed land ownership patterns and persons who were evicted from their land for being the wrong race in the wrong place under apartheid, which compensation they received, if any, is best described as “grossly inadequate.” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/86 "2018-03-04T07:53:12Z")
> [@WilyQuixote](#): > > The 73% figure is usually taken from an AGRI SA land audit released last year. Whilst I do not doubt that rural land ownership is heavily skewed in favour of whites, this is a flawed report and makes a lot of questionable assumptions. > > Its nowhere near accurate and the authors themselves will be the first to concede that further investigation is required. It’s the latest figure available, and \*still \*puts things in a better light than the “80% owned by 40,000 families” that was doing the rounds previously. I’m happy to see other, more comprehensive figures ( as long as they’re not coming from AfriForum or the FF+) > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Families/tenants/workers that have been working on white-owned land for times dating back to apartheid should get ownership shares in that land.[…]Don’t know if this is feasible at all, and maybe someone’s suggested this before, but I thought I’d throw my ass-derived idea out there for the South Africans to shit all over. Can’t speak for the rest of the country, but this is a model being (IME, quite successfully) pursued by several Western Cape [wine farms](http://www.wosa.co.za/Sustainability/Socially-Sustainable/BEE/Empowerment-Projects/) (that page lists other social programs besides co-ownership, though). I’m familiar with the excellent product of several of those estates 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![WilyQuixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@WilyQuixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WilyQuixote)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/87 "2018-03-04T08:47:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s the latest figure available, and \*still \*puts things in a better light than the “80% owned by 40,000 families” that was doing the rounds previously. I’m happy to see other, more comprehensive figures ( as long as they’re not coming from AfriForum or the FF+) There are other figures, but they aren’t much, if at all, better and many are much worse. This is why I’m advocating caution when suing or citing the report rather than outright dismissal. Part of the reason why accurate ownership of farmland broken down by race is so hard to come by is that as efficient as the Deeds Registry is, no records of ownership by race is kept nor is race specified on a title deed. So when an organisation like Agri SA compile a report, survey or study, a race is assigned to the owner/purchaser based on the name. This is of course, flawless. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/88 "2018-03-04T10:44:03Z")
> [@WilyQuixote](#): > > So when an organisation like Agri SA compile a report, survey or study, a race is assigned to the owner/purchaser based on the name. This is of course, flawless. :rolleyes: 🙂 As a carrier of a totally British full name, I roll my eyes with you :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/89 "2018-03-04T12:35:20Z")
How important is the agricultural sector in SA, in term of percentage of GDP? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/90 "2018-03-04T20:50:24Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > How important is the agricultural sector in SA, in term of percentage of GDP? It’s around 2.6% of GDP, but around 12% of our export earnings. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/91 "2018-03-05T04:08:15Z")
> [@WilyQuixote](#): > > 😕 You said this several times since I first posted. You do realise that I am South African right? It’s right there in my location field. I’m no expert on the subject, and I’m trying not to sound arrogant,\* but as a duly admitted attorney, notary and conveyancer I’m probably the closest thing to an expert in this thread. > > \*Yeah, I probably failed at that. We were hoping for a cabinet minister … ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/92 "2018-03-05T12:39:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’d love to hear from the board’s South Africans. In my experience on the board, they have by far the best understanding of South African issues, and almost always end up majorly correcting the OP and others who express repeated skepticism about the ability of black South Africans to govern. I am somewhat interestingly placed in this situation: I am Zimbabwean by birth (and lived there for 24 years), and South African by descent (I live there now). I’m also “white” (as much as that has meaning in a multi-cultural society). As my compatriots have laid out a good explanation of the situation in South Africa, I’d like to add this, for the OP: Dear Quartz, We have more than enough racists in South Africa as it is; we do not need you to export your hatred. Thanks anyway. Sincerely, All South Africans. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/93 "2018-03-05T12:46:18Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > …Julius Malema… > Oh, and this guy was already sentenced to prison for hate speech against whites. Mr. Malema has been accused and indeed found guilty of hate speech. He has, however, not been sentenced to prison. Judge Colin Lamont (of the Johannesburg High Court) stated that Mr. Malema may be facing criminal charges and a potential prison sentence if he persists in hate speech; but as Mr. Malema changed his tune (somewhat) since then, he has not been in court on related charges. I personally hope that he will be imprisoned, but for the sake of accuracy, this has not yet happened. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2018, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/94 "2018-03-06T14:42:24Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Getting back to the topic: > > “Land Reform” i.e., take land from the rich land owners and distribute it to the poor people who work it as tenants and share croppers- has a long sad history of failing; and yet because it intuitively seems as if it **ought** to work that time and again it keeps getting tried by people who insist that market forces are artificial and can be set aside by fiat. In Latin America it goes back to the wars of independence from Spain. Not really. Sometimes it fails disastrously, sometimes the results are mediocre, sometimes it works quite well. There’s a big difference between land reform that takes place within the capitalist system, land reform that takes place along cooperative lines, and land reform under socialist or communist lines. Even just taking the last one, communist countries varied quite a bit in terms of their agricultural productivity. State control of the agricultural sector had a mediocre record in the Soviet Union (after the famine era) and in Poland and Cuba, and a worse than mediocre record in China, but it worked quite well in East Germany, Hungary and Czechoslovakia: > **[INTERNATIONAL REPORT; Collective Farms in Czechoslovakia Score One Success...](https://www.nytimes.com/1990/04/16/business/international-report-collective-farms-czechoslovakia-score-one-success-for.html)** As you point out, Latin America has done land reform many times, and although the long term effects on inequality haven’t been amazing, they haven’t resulted in massive agricultural failures either. Mexico and Peru both carried out extensive land redistribution in the 1930s and 1960s respectively, and both of them seemed to come out of it fine. > [@Lumpy](#): > > The main problem is that control of the land is really placed in the hands of the government officials, bureaucrats and military leaders who set up a politicized spoils system whose primary purpose is to keep the land redistributors in power. This is what happened in Zimbabwe. That’s what happened in Zimbabwe. It’s not a typical or inevitable sequence of events, neither in Latin America, Europe, nor Africa. Lots of countries have done land reform and only rarely does it end up with Zimbabwe. I don’t see any reason to assume the worst scenario here. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2018, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911/95 "2018-03-06T15:43:18Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > That’s what happened in Zimbabwe. It’s not a typical or inevitable sequence of events, neither in Latin America, Europe, nor Africa. Lots of countries have done land reform and only rarely does it end up with Zimbabwe. I don’t see any reason to assume the worst scenario here. The only reason to assume that this proposal will not go well is because of the lack of specificity in how it is to be executed and assuring a continuity of competent management. If good land use and agricultural management isn’t applied, the economic damage could be dramatic, and even though agriculture isn’t a majority part of South Africa’s GDP, domestic grain and meat production provides stability even if the currently cheap imported perishable foodstuffs becomes inflated. Stranger [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-shithole-south-africa/809911.md?page=4)