# Next up: Immigration reform (one more time) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353 "2010-03-22T16:29:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/1 "2010-03-22T16:29:41Z")
Even before we’ve all caught our breath from the health-care reform fight, [Latinos marched in Washington demanding Obama keep his promise on immigration reform.](http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2010/0322/At-Washington-s-immigration-reform-march-a-warning-from-Latinos) [Michael Lind writes:](http://www.salon.com/news/immigration/index.html?story=/opinion/feature/2010/03/08/immigration_reform) > [@](#): > > There are four main problems with contemporary American immigration policy: Our immigration laws are not adequately enforced; most of the 12 million or more illegal immigrants residing in the U.S. should be allowed to become citizens; guest-worker programs create a two-tier labor market with an ever-expanding category of indentured servants; and emphasis needs to be shifted from unskilled to skilled immigration. He suggests: 1. **After** amnesty, really crack down on any further illegal immigration, and especially on those who hire illegals. 2. A rapid patch to citizenship for most illegals now in the country. However, first they should get green cards, and they should “go to the end of the line” after those here legally. The naturalization process from green card to citizenship should be reduced from five to two years. 3. “Abolishing indentured servitude among immigrants”: > [@](#): > > In recent decades, however, some American industries have tried to replace the free labor of citizen-workers and legal immigrants with indentured servants in the form of so-called guest workers who are brought in to work for a specific employer and must leave the U.S. if they are fired. Needless to say, workers who are dependent on their employers to remain in the U.S. are afraid to assert their rights or protest against abuses. > > The main beneficiaries of indentured servitude today are Silicon Valley, which relies heavily on professional guest workers under the H1B and other programs, and some sectors of American agribusiness, which have re-created Bracero-style programs on a small scale. > > We need not take seriously the self-serving argument of agribusiness corporations that we will all starve if they are forced to hire Americans to harvest crops for decent wages instead of bringing in serfs from other countries. The tech industry, many of whose entrepreneurs and inventors are foreign-born, makes a legitimate case for admitting more skilled immigrants, including foreign nationals who graduate from U.S. universities. > > But those skilled immigrants should be legal permanent residents who are free to quit one job and take another, not information-age coolies indentured to particular companies. Once a point system for skilled immigrants is adopted (see below), guest worker visas should be limited to short-term visitors, such as visiting professors, and abolished entirely in the case of unskilled labor. 1. “Shifting the basis of immigration from nepotism to skills:”: > [@](#): > > The single biggest category of U.S. immigrants includes relatives sponsored by U.S. citizens. At the moment this nepotistic policy happens to increase Latin American immigration to the U.S., but in theory it could benefit any group with large families, a characteristic that tends to be associated with premodern social attitudes and lower educational and income levels. > > Most other advanced democracies have adopted or are debating a “points system” under which immigrants with high levels of education, desirable skills and competence in the host-country language would be given preference in immigration. Combined with the limitation of family-based immigration to the children and parents of U.S. citizens, an American points system would reduce unskilled immigration at a time when mass unemployment has hit less-educated Americans and legal immigrants particularly hard. > > At the same time, a points system would enable the U.S. to compete with its economic rivals in luring skilled immigrants from every part of the world. A points system would not be “anti-Latino,” any more than it would be “anti-Filipino.” (Mexico and the Philippines are the two biggest sources of immigration to the U.S. today.) On the contrary, it would make immigration to the U.S. easier for Mexican or Filipino scientists, engineers, entrepreneurs and professionals who lack relatives already living in the U.S. > > Would admitting more skilled immigrants drive down wages and fees for educated professionals? In some industries, like tech, more talent gathered together may produce greater growth of the industry as a whole. In other areas, like medicine, increased skilled immigration might well reduce average incomes. American doctors make roughly twice as much on average as European doctors. Doubling the number of doctors in the U.S. while cutting their compensation would benefit most Americans. > > If we are concerned about polarizing inequality in the U.S., then a shift from unskilled to skilled immigration that leads to lower salaries for college-educated professionals and higher wages for janitors, nursing aides and other less-skilled workers can produce a more equal America without the need for massive after-tax redistribution. That all sounds very sensible to me. We don’t suffer the disruption of losing the immigrants here now, even those here illegally (remember that massive “immigrants’ strike” a few years ago? We **need** their labor), but we adopt a more rational policy for the future. So: 1. Will the Obama Admin make immigration reform its next priority? 2. Can it be done in the near future, say, before November? 3. Are the above proposals good ones? If not, what would work better? 4. How will it all play out politically/electorally? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/2 "2010-03-22T16:37:07Z")
I think it’s electoral poison. Remember that the Bush administration was favorable to immigration reform. If it couldn’t get done even with that level of Republican support, it’s not going to happen at a time when moderate Democrats are already running scared. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/3 "2010-03-22T16:39:35Z")
As much as I would LOVE to see some version of CIR pass, it ain’t gonna happen in the current economic climate. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/4 "2010-03-22T16:43:13Z")
Did they check their green cards before they marched on Washington? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/5 "2010-03-22T17:35:29Z")
I wasn’t aware one needed a Green Card to take part in a march on Washington. Should they stop all people who look foreign and ask them for paperwork or only those involved in political advocacy? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/6 "2010-03-22T17:43:08Z")
I seriously doubt this is next on the agenda, if Obama tackles this at all it will be at the end of his second term like Bush did. > [@](#): > > 1. A rapid patch to citizenship for most illegals now in the country. However, first they should get green cards, and they should “go to the end of the line” after those here legally. The naturalization process from green card to citizenship should be reduced from five to two years. The problem with this is that the “line” is already about five to seven years behind schedule, i know this because i am in it. Adding 12 million illegal immigrants to the end of the line would mean they would have about a twenty year wait to become citizens. What they need to do is fix the system they have NOW before they add more people to it. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/7 "2010-03-22T18:00:05Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > The problem with this is that the “line” is already about five to seven years behind schedule, i know this because i am in it. Adding 12 million illegal immigrants to the end of the line would mean they would have about a twenty year wait to become citizens. What they need to do is fix the system they have NOW before they add more people to it. You must be in a short part of the line; [some parts of the line are 20+ years long.](http://www.travel.state.gov/visa/frvi/bulletin/bulletin_4659.html) (And that’s just the green card line; add at least 5 years to that for citizenship in the vast majority of cases.) But yes, unless the entire system is reworked, all that would be accomplished by granting green card eligibility to people who aren’t already in line is making the line longer. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/8 "2010-03-22T18:02:17Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > The problem with this is that the “line” is already about five to seven years behind schedule, i know this because i am in it. A purely administrative problem, soluble by hiring just a few more bureaucrats to process the paperwork. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/9 "2010-03-22T18:04:52Z")
Yes, a big problem with the present system is that the queues for the legal processing of applications for visas, green cards, etc., are far too long. Related to that is the problem that the present system is far too complex. Not even those working in the system seem to understand it. For example, I once spent about an hour waiting to be admitted into the US from Canada at Buffalo, even though I’d done everything right. I was on an employment visa, I’d won the Green Card Lottery, I was in “adjustment of status” from the visa to a green card, and I’d applied for and received “advance parole” to be readmitted to the US while in adjustment of status. While I was waiting at Buffalo, I could see the person with my documentation trying to make sense of it, with a couple of others standing behind him in the office, at one of the busiest border posts in the US. If those professionals don’t understand how to deal with a matter like that, where all the paperwork is in order according to the arcane rules, and if your average immigrant needs a lawyer or a paralegal to help them through the mess, then the system is broken. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/10 "2010-03-22T18:07:02Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Yes, a big problem with the present system is that the queues for the legal processing of applications for visas, green cards, etc., are far too long. > > Related to that is the problem that the present system is far too complex. Not even those working in the system seem to understand it. For example, I once spent about an hour waiting to be admitted into the US from Canada at Buffalo, even though I’d done everything right. I was on an employment visa, I’d won the Green Card Lottery, I was in “adjustment of status” from the visa to a green card, and I’d applied for and received “advance parole” to be readmitted to the US while in adjustment of status. While I was waiting at Buffalo, I could see the person with my documentation trying to make sense of it, with a couple of others standing behind him in the office, at one of the busiest border posts in the US. If those professionals don’t understand how to deal with a matter like that, where all the paperwork is in order according to the arcane rules, and if your average immigrant needs a lawyer or a paralegal to help them through the mess, then the system is broken. Presumably, simplifying/clarifying the rules and streamlining the process would be part of any immigration-reform package. ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/11 "2010-03-22T18:09:35Z")
no, we don’t “need their labor”. There is a great deal of unemployment among Americans already. If some of the unemployed lack the precise skills in demand, they can be trained at the workplace - these are not stupid or lazy people. Many others probably have the skills but are not hired because of discrimination in favor of the Latinos (especially with the Latinos themselves doing the hiring). So no, America will not grind to a halt if the illegal immigrants stop working. Their jobs will be taken by Americans. And remember, those illegal immigrants can always go back to the low cost Mexico environment and live their from their savings, but Americans cannot. Americans are stuck over here and have to find a way to earn money to pay the high American rents. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/12 "2010-03-22T18:22:37Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > And remember, those illegal immigrants can always go back to the low cost Mexico environment and live their from their savings, but Americans cannot. Americans are stuck over here and have to find a way to earn money to pay the high American rents. 😕 No, we’re not. You would find it a lot easier to move to Mexico, if you wished, than a Mexican finds it to move here. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/13 "2010-03-22T18:23:57Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > You must be in a short part of the line; [some parts of the line are 20+ years long.](http://www.travel.state.gov/visa/frvi/bulletin/bulletin_4659.html) (And that’s just the green card line; add at least 5 years to that for citizenship in the vast majority of cases.) > > But yes, unless the entire system is reworked, all that would be accomplished by granting green card eligibility to people who aren’t already in line is making the line longer. I think that some positive results could be achieved by figuratively holding the Republican leaders’ feet to the fire and adopting essentially the proposal outlined in the OP in substantially the form that GWB came out in support of. (While I personally have significant issues with much of the performance of the younger President Bush, I thought he was reasonably close to on target as regards immigration reform. One of my favorite absurdities is the fact that under current immigration law, an unskilled laborer who is a Mexican national without family in the U.S. or other statutory eligibility for preferential treatment, given the quota available and the queue for that quota, has a projected wait time of no longer than five and a half million years. (The figures as they were quoted to me show that the unskilled-labor quota, once all those with statutory privilege are discounted, works out to two per year; with about 11 million people estimated to be seriously interested in immigrating, the math works out to a 5.5-million-year waiting time.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/14 "2010-03-22T18:33:21Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > I think that some positive results could be achieved by figuratively holding the Republican leaders’ feet to the fire and adopting essentially the proposal outlined in the OP in substantially the form that GWB came out in support of. Minus the “guest-worker program,” I hope. No more indentured servitude of immigrants, please, and no more allowing the corporations to use cheap immigrant labor to undercut the job market. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/15 "2010-03-22T18:34:23Z")
Any plan that grants amnesty or amnesty light (a “path to citizenship”) makes a mockery of our laws and turns those people with the good graces to not sneak in and wait in line suckers. We need reform, yes. And we need to make it much easier for people to immigrate here legally. But the numbers we let in should serve us, not anyone else. If we need a million a year, open the spigot; if we have high unemployment, close it. Also, a guest worker program like that in Canada would serve us well. Especially since our labor needs are seasonal, and can fluctuate from year to year. We need to immediately start going after employers in a serious manner. Their undermining of our laws and national security will continue until owners and managers who knowingly try to game the system have a likelihood of spending a few years in jail. Next, we need to turn off the other magnets. No benefits for any illegal—no school, assistance, or medical care aside from basic emergency care and possibly vaccinations. One other thing we should do is pass a law that no one who is here after a certain date, or can shown to have been here illegally, can ever become a citizen or get a green card. They must leave and, if they’d like, seek entry via legal channels. Of course, this nonsense of allowing someone to sneak in and plop out a bay on American soil and have that baby be a citizen (and a ticket to citizenship for the parents) should stop immediately. We are saps. Time to wake the fuck up. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/16 "2010-03-22T18:35:25Z")
[The Freepers are already Freeking out, BTW.](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2476603/posts) They seem to assume the whole point of this is to enable illegal immigrants to vote, and vote Dem, **this November.** :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/17 "2010-03-22T18:36:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Minus the “guest-worker program,” I hope. No more indentured servitude of immigrants, please, and no more allowing the corporations to use cheap immigrant labor to undercut the job market. Well, how about we force corporations to hire people that are here legally. Force the market to increase the demand side of legal labor. While many Americans might not want to do Job X for Salary Y, they’d probably jump at it if the cost was 2Y. Let the market dictate the value of labor. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/18 "2010-03-22T18:39:43Z")
> [@villa](#): > > I wasn’t aware one needed a Green Card to take part in a march on Washington. > > Should they stop all people who look foreign and ask them for paperwork or only those involved in political advocacy? Theoretically, one would need a green card to even BE in the US, no? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/19 "2010-03-22T18:41:02Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Theoretically, one would need a green card to even BE in the US, no? No. Absolutely not. My parents, visiting me next week don’t have Green Cards. The first 10 times or so I came to the U.S. I did not have a Green Card. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/20 "2010-03-22T18:41:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [The Freepers are already Freeking out, BTW.](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2476603/posts) They seem to assume the whole point of this is to enable illegal immigrants to vote, and vote Dem, **this November.** :rolleyes: That is a big part of it. And on the other side you have equally scumbaggy Reps wanting to provide a steady supply of cheap labor to agricultural, building, and hotel corporations, so they can, in turn, provide a steady stream of donations to campaign coffers. On immigration, most Dems and Reps are in a traitorous unholy alliance. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353.md?page=2)