# Next up: Immigration reform (one more time) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353 "2010-03-22T16:29:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/21 "2010-03-22T18:42:50Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [The Freepers are already Freeking out, BTW.](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2476603/posts) They seem to assume the whole point of this is to enable illegal immigrants to vote, and vote Dem, **this November.** :rolleyes: Also so that Obama will be landslided back in in 2012 at which point he will cancel all future elections. Rush told me that on the radio today. Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/22 "2010-03-22T18:44:22Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Theoretically, one would need a green card to even BE in the US, no? No. A non-citizen can be in the US: (1) On the visa waiver program, as a tourist from one of many countries. (2) On a tourist visa. (3) On a temporary employment visa. (4) On a derivative visa as the spouse or child of a person on a temporary employment visa. And there are many more, including student visas, and visas derivative of those: I’ve only listed the ways in which I, or members of my immediate family, have entered the US in the last 16 years or so. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/23 "2010-03-22T18:54:59Z")
Just out of curiosity, how long are those visas valid? ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/24 "2010-03-22T18:56:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > A purely administrative problem, soluble by hiring just a few more bureaucrats to process the paperwork. Simple, every illegal immigrant who is granted legal status has to work for 2 years for the immigration department doing processing. In 5 years they’ll be caught up. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/25 "2010-03-22T18:57:01Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Just out of curiosity, how long are those visas valid? Depends on the visa. Just out of curiousity, do you think anyone “foreign looking” should be stopped to have their paperwork checked, or only those involved in political advocacy? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/26 "2010-03-22T18:58:04Z")
Visa waiver – up to 90 days Tourist visa – the one I had, back before the visa waiver program, multiple entries over a five-year period. Employment visa, and derivative visas for family – the one I had was for three years Green card – mine is for 10 years ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/27 "2010-03-22T19:00:58Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Green card – mine is for 10 years While the card is valid for 10 years, the status is permanent. The renewal of the card every 10 years is administrative. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/28 "2010-03-22T19:01:48Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > no, we don’t “need their labor”. There is a great deal of unemployment among Americans already. If some of the unemployed lack the precise skills in demand, they can be trained at the workplace - these are not stupid or lazy people. Many others probably have the skills but are not hired because of discrimination in favor of the Latinos (especially with the Latinos themselves doing the hiring). > > So no, America will not grind to a halt if the illegal immigrants stop working. Their jobs will be taken by Americans. And remember, those illegal immigrants can always go back to the low cost Mexico environment and live their from their savings, but Americans cannot. Americans are stuck over here and have to find a way to earn money to pay the high American rents. Are you an employer? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/29 "2010-03-22T19:01:51Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > And remember, those illegal immigrants can always go back to the low cost Mexico environment and live their from their savings, but Americans cannot. Americans are stuck over here and have to find a way to earn money to pay the high American rents. That’s going to be a huge shock to lots of Americans happily retired and living it up in Mexico and other parts of the world. This isn’t North Korea, you are not “stuck” anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/30 "2010-03-22T19:02:44Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Of course, this nonsense of allowing someone to sneak in and plop out a bay on American soil and have that baby be a citizen (and a ticket to citizenship for the parents) should stop immediately. We are saps. Time to wake the fuck up. Time to “wake the fuck up” that [a U.S. citizen child cannot petition for a green card for his/her parents until he/she turns 21.](http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=f63da6c515083210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=f63da6c515083210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD) Which is a rather long-term plan, to say the very least, especially given that parents of U.S. citizens are still subject to significant bars to immigrating legally if they have been unlawfully present in the U.S., even after the immediate relative petition is approved. It is entirely possible for reasonable people to differ regarding what a reasonable U.S. immigration policy might look like, but I am really tired of the old “anchor baby” canard. Eva Luna Aiding the Huddled Masses Since 1990 ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/31 "2010-03-22T19:08:33Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > Time to “wake the fuck up” that [a U.S. citizen child cannot petition for a green card for his/her parents until he/she turns 21.](http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=f63da6c515083210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=f63da6c515083210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD) Which is a rather long-term plan, to say the very least, especially given that parents of U.S. citizens are still subject to significant bars to immigrating legally if they have been unlawfully present in the U.S., even after the immediate relative petition is approved. > > It is entirely possible for reasonable people to differ regarding what a reasonable U.S. immigration policy might look like, but I am really tired of the old “anchor baby” canard. > > Eva Luna > Aiding the Huddled Masses Since 1990 Sorry, Toots, but I knew that the kid had to be 21. That’s probably why I didn’t say otherwise. So, why don’t you wake the fuck up and pay attention to the words on the screen, ignoring the ones that aren’t there. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/32 "2010-03-22T19:15:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Sorry, Toots, but I knew that the kid had to be 21. That’s probably why I didn’t say otherwise. So, why don’t you wake the fuck up and pay attention to the words on the screen, ignoring the ones that aren’t there. Knock off the swearing, would ya? And my name isn’t “toots,” as you well know. And the truth remains that having a baby in the U.S. isn’t a one-way ticket to citizenship, as you well know. So knock off the lies of omission; all they do is obfuscate the debate. If you debate respectfully, then so will I. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/33 "2010-03-22T19:21:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Sorry, Toots, but I knew that the kid had to be 21. That’s probably why I didn’t say otherwise. So, why don’t you wake the fuck up and pay attention to the words on the screen, ignoring the ones that aren’t there. This isn’t called-for, **magellan01**. Dial it back. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/34 "2010-03-22T19:32:37Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > no, we don’t “need their labor”. There is a great deal of unemployment among Americans already. If some of the unemployed lack the precise skills in demand, they can be trained at the workplace - these are not stupid or lazy people. Many others probably have the skills but are not hired because of discrimination in favor of the Latinos (especially with the Latinos themselves doing the hiring). The labor market has many local variations. A couple of years ago, a client of my firm was hiring for seasonal nonagricultural laborers; they had several hundred open positions, and the only requirements were being able to lift 50 lbs. and passing a criminal background check. We guided them through supervised recruitment (which is a torturous process whereby the Dept. of Labor in the state where the comany’s facilities are located - in this case, three states - tells you how much you need to pay workers, and where you are required to advertise. Applicants are funneled through the Dept. of Labor, and if you don’t hire someone who they deem a qualified applicant, you’d better have a good explanation.) The jobs paid pretty well for unskilled labor, certainly well above minimum wage, and the worksites were along the Gulf Coast, in economically depressed areas that had been slammed by Katrina. How many applicants did our client get for these several hundred decent-paying positions? Two. Sure, all Americans will do any job, especially if they can’t find anything else. NOT. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/35 "2010-03-22T19:41:13Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > That is a big part of it. :dubious: You don’t really believe that. No matter what Congress does this year, not one person now in the U.S. illegally is going to get citizenship and voting rights by November, or even by 2012. Relatively few legal green-card residents will – the naturalization process is horribly backlogged. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/36 "2010-03-22T19:43:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: You don’t really believe that. No matter what Congress does this year, not one person now in the U.S. illegally is going to get citizenship and voting rights by November, or even by 2012. Relatively few legal green-card residents will – the naturalization process is horribly backlogged. Not as much as it used to be; it’s running less than 6 months here for cases without issues. Green cards, OTOH… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/37 "2010-03-22T19:44:28Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Well, how about we force corporations to hire people that are here legally. Force the market to increase the demand side of legal labor. While many Americans might not want to do Job X for Salary Y, they’d probably jump at it if the cost was 2Y. Let the market dictate the value of labor. That’s pretty much the thinking behind Lind’s ideas in the OP. However, he notes: > [@](#): > > The federal government is not going to arrest and deport more than 12 million illegal immigrants who are already incorporated into American workplaces and communities. Just as unworkable is the “attrition” strategy favored by some on the right – make life miserable for millions of illegal immigrants until they go home. > > Two goals are in tension. On the one hand, we want to replace a huge and harmful black market in labor by incorporating former illegal immigrants into a one-tier labor force consisting of U.S. citizens and legal permanent residents with identical rights, including the right to join unions. That means the quickest possible amnesty. > > On the other hand, we do not want to punish immigrants who have not violated U.S. laws and have waited patiently in line, in many cases for years. Amnestied illegal immigrants should go to the end of the line of those awaiting legal permanent resident status (green cards). One solution to this dilemma, which I have proposed elsewhere, is that the naturalization process from getting a green card to obtaining full citizenship be reduced from five years to two years. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/38 "2010-03-22T19:46:14Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > One other thing we should do is pass a law that **no one who is here after a certain date,** or can shown to have been here illegally, can ever become a citizen or get a green card. They must leave and, if they’d like, seek entry via legal channels. 😕 What do you mean by the bolded part? Haven’t seen anyone suggest that before. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/39 "2010-03-22T19:51:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*Brain Glutton \*\*wrote > 3) Are the above proposals good ones? If not, what would work better? Enforce existing laws, implement e-verify, end birthright citizenship and remove welfare for illegals. > [@](#): > > \*\*In short, we are witnessing a highly advanced and prosperous state, long endowed with superior human capital, turning into the exact opposite in just one generation. What can be done to stop this race to the bottom? The answer is simple: California and Washington need to enforce existing immigration law. \*\*Unfortunately, it is difficult to convince the public that this is necessary, so deeply entrenched are myths about illegal immigration. > > One myth is that because America is a country of immigrants and has successfully absorbed waves of immigration in the past, it can absorb this wave. But the argument neglects two key differences between past waves and the current influx. First, the immigrant population is more than double today what it was following the most massive previous immigration wave (that of the late 19th century). Second, and much more important, as scholars from the Manhattan Institute have shown, earlier immigrants were much more likely to bring with them useful skills. Some Hispanic immigrants certainly do integrate, but most do not. Research has shown that even after 20 years in the country, most illegal aliens (the overwhelming majority of whom are Hispanic) and their children remain poor, unskilled, and culturally isolated they constitute a new permanent underclass. > > Perhaps the most disingenuous myth about illegal immigrants is that they do not impose any cost on society. The reality is that even those who work and half do not, according to the Pew Hispanic Center cannot subsist on the wages they receive and depend on public assistance to a large degree. Research on Los Angeles immigrants by Harvard University scholar George J. Borjas shows that 40.1 percent of immigrant families with non-citizen heads of household receive welfare, compared with 12.7 percent of households with native-born heads. Illegal immigrants also increase public expenditures on health care, education, and prisons. In California today, illegal immigrants’ cost to the taxpayer is estimated to be $13 billion half the state’s budget deficit. > > **The state should stop providing welfare and other social services to illegal aliens as existing statutes demand and severely punish employers who break the law by hiring illegal immigrants. This would immediately remove powerful economic incentives for illegal immigration, and millions of illegal aliens would return to their countries. Instead, with President Obama in the White House and the Democrats controlling Congress, an amnesty for the country’s 13 million illegal immigrants may be soon to come.** > > Milton Friedman once said that unrestrained immigration and the welfare state do not mix. Must we wait until California catches up with Mexico to realize how right he was? [National Review Online: Stop Illegals, Save CA : NPR](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112167023) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/40 "2010-03-22T19:58:30Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > The labor market has many local variations. A couple of years ago, a client of my firm was hiring for seasonal nonagricultural laborers; they had several hundred open positions, and the only requirements were being able to lift 50 lbs. and passing a criminal background check. > > We guided them through supervised recruitment (which is a torturous process whereby the Dept. of Labor in the state where the comany’s facilities are located - in this case, three states - tells you how much you need to pay workers, and where you are required to advertise. Applicants are funneled through the Dept. of Labor, and if you don’t hire someone who they deem a qualified applicant, you’d better have a good explanation.) > > The jobs paid pretty well for unskilled labor, certainly well above minimum wage, and the worksites were along the Gulf Coast, in economically depressed areas that had been slammed by Katrina. > > How many applicants did our client get for these several hundred decent-paying positions? > > Two. > > Sure, all Americans will do any job, especially if they can’t find anything else. NOT. Let’s see: 1. A couple of years ago would have been at the high point of the Bush-era recovery. 2. The jobs were physical labor and were temporary. 3. There was this matter of the criminal background check. Let’s revisit the statement: “Sure, all Americans will do any job, especially if they can’t find anything else. NOT.” It was at the top of the employment cycle, so most people _could have_, and probably had, found some other job by that point. A big chunk of those still having difficulties finding jobs were surely persons with nontrivial past encounters with the law, who you were weeding out (or scaring away, same difference) by the criminal background check. And then what you’re offering the relative handful of unemployed people with little to fear from the background check is a physically demanding but temporary job. Many of them wouldn’t be in the market for such a job even if it were permanent; the rest, in that labor market, might figure the payoff from staying put and looking for something of a longer-term nature was likely to be better. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353.md?page=3)