# Next up: Immigration reform (one more time) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353 "2010-03-22T16:29:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/141 "2010-03-25T02:05:33Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And once again, lets not forget the subject of this thread: immigration reform, as IQ discussions also affect even black Americans, you are still pushing an item that has very little relevance to immigration reform. Incidentally, just to clarity where you are coming from, do you realize that IQ will not be an issue with immigrants that happen to be smarter? What are you offering to them with your efforts here? Well that’s another thing - if you increase the number of people academically underachieving you need to expand affirmative action efforts. Ultimately, it isn’t sustainable. If immigrants happen to be smarter then great. I started this line of comments after brain gluttons point about what would happen if the illegal migrants were coming from Canada. My point was that he’s right the response would be different, but the impact of the migrants would be very different too & probably be more manageable. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/142 "2010-03-25T02:18:01Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Well that’s another thing - if you increase the number of people academically underachieving you need to expand affirmative action efforts. Ultimately, it isn’t sustainable. Meh, as I considerer it, once they are not saddled with poverty (Really, the work ethnic of most of them is admirable) that will be less of an issue. But of course, immigration reform has to happen first. > [@Chen019](#): > > If immigrants happen to be smarter then great. I started this line of comments after brain gluttons point about what would happen if the illegal migrants were coming from Canada. My point was that he’s right the response would be different, but the impact of the migrants would be very different too & probably be more manageable. Still not a good reason to oppose immigration reform. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/143 "2010-03-25T03:00:32Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > (Really, the work ethnic of most of them is admirable) Work ethic, I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/144 "2010-03-25T03:06:33Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Meh, as I considerer it, once they are not saddled with poverty (Really, the work ethnic of most of them is admirable) that will be less of an issue. But of course, immigration reform has to happen first. But how will they come to not being saddled with poverty? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/145 "2010-03-26T16:44:10Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > But how will they come to not being saddled with poverty? Same way all the previous immigrant waves did. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/146 "2010-03-26T16:46:38Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > If immigrants happen to be smarter then great. I started this line of comments after brain gluttons point about what would happen if the illegal migrants were coming from Canada. My point was that he’s right the response would be different, but the impact of the migrants would be very different too & probably be more manageable. _sigh_ Let me restate the point: VDARE and the Minutemen would not exist if the illegal-immigration pressure were coming from some non-English-speaking country in Northwestern Europe, such as Germany or France or Sweden; they **would** exist, if it were coming from practically anywhere in the nonwhite world. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/147 "2010-03-27T04:03:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > _sigh_ Let me restate the point: VDARE and the Minutemen would not exist if the illegal-immigration pressure were coming from some non-English-speaking country in Northwestern Europe, such as Germany or France or Sweden; they **would** exist, if it were coming from practically anywhere in the nonwhite world. It’s not simply the fact that they don’t speak English, it’s that subsequent generations are not assimilating and are requiring affirmative action because they underachieve academically. If you had people from Germany or France you wouldn’t have the same problem with subsequent generations (they’d have same average iq - about 100, compared to about average 90 for Hispanic Americans). (“Ethnic Group Differences in Cognitive Ability in Employment and Educational Settings: A Meta-Analysis,” Roth et al 2001). ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/148 "2010-03-27T04:16:54Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > It’s not simply the fact that they don’t speak English, it’s that subsequent generations are not assimilating and are requiring affirmative action because they underachieve academically. If you had people from Germany or France you wouldn’t have the same problem with subsequent generations (they’d have same average iq - about 100, compared to about average 90 for Hispanic Americans). > > (“Ethnic Group Differences in Cognitive Ability in Employment and Educational Settings: A Meta-Analysis,” Roth et al 2001). There you go again, you really need to stop that, as you are still not giving any option to the ones that are smarter. Frankly, it seems that you are assuming that the shoe you are trowing at them will fit all. An once again, this is only by ignoring that poverty is the big cause of that disparity. (And even there I have to say that it remains a controversial point) ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/149 "2010-03-28T22:19:25Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > There you go again, you really need to stop that, as you are still not giving any option to the ones that are smarter. Frankly, it seems that you are assuming that the shoe you are trowing at them will fit all. > > An once again, this is only by ignoring that poverty is the big cause of that disparity. (And even there I have to say that it remains a controversial point) It won’t fit all as individuals differ, but the statistical trends are pretty clear. And why does any option have to be offered? Immigration isn’t there to benefit Mexico. If poverty is a cause of the disparity you again have to ask why import poverty? It makes no sense. Socioeconomic status doesn’t cause academic performance either. > [@](#): > > It is sometimes claimed that IQ is just a proxy for SES (Socioeconomic Status): high IQ kids are merely the beneficiaries of better home environments, and correlations between IQ and life outcomes are merely a proxy for correlations between childhood environment and outcomes. Of course, this claim does not address the significant variations in IQ within families. Does IQ have predictive power once SES is controlled for? The answer is obvious from anecdotal experience: we all know siblings who, by definition, shared the same family SES, but with different IQs and life outcomes. > **[SES and IQ](https://infoproc.blogspot.com/2010/03/ses-and-iq.html)** > > It is sometimes claimed that IQ is just a proxy for SES (Socioeconomic Status): high IQ kids are merely the beneficiaries of better home env... ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/150 "2010-03-28T23:22:36Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > It won’t fit all as individuals differ, but the statistical trends are pretty clear. And why does any option have to be offered? Immigration isn’t there to benefit Mexico. > > If poverty is a cause of the disparity you again have to ask why import poverty? It makes no sense. Socioeconomic status doesn’t cause academic performance either. > > [Information Processing: SES and IQ](http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2010/03/ses-and-iq.html) :rolleyes: Please check the definition of Prejudice, I was willing to not go that way, but that is clearly what you are doing, **you are prejudging what many immigrants will do if they are being giving the chance**. And it will be only after they are being given the chance that then the ones that are smarter (A good chuck of them even based on your biased sources) will succeed academically, or if not, succeed doing honest work that does not require a college degree. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/151 "2010-03-28T23:34:59Z")
Also [http://dienekes.awardspace.com/blog/archives/000437.html](http://dienekes.awardspace.com/blog/archives/000437.html) > [@](#): > > Poverty, Flynn Effect and IQ > > David B. writes about the effects of prosperity on IQ. As he noted previously, environmental factors, gauged e.g., by infant mortality, go a long way towards explaining the difference in IQ in nations around the world. David notes that the secular rise in IQ [Flynn effect] must have been in part due to the rising prosperity of developed societies since 1930. Using per capita GDP as a measure of prosperity David discovers that many nations today are at about the same level of prosperity as the UK was in 1930, or even much poorer. This may indicate that their present-day IQ scores may not be genetic in origin, but may be -at least partly- due to the fact that these countries did not experience the surge in prosperity that contributed to the rise of IQ in developed nations. You are on purpose denying that there is controversy regarding IQ and using it to pigeonhole races and ethnicity when you say that “it makes no sense”. Well, there is doubts on using IQ for that, and even more so when being used to prejudge people in an immigration reform discussion. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/152 "2010-03-28T23:56:14Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > If poverty is a cause of the disparity you again have to ask why import poverty? It makes no sense. America has been doing exactly that since before independence and we’ve done well enough out of it so far. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/153 "2010-03-29T02:17:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > America has been doing exactly that since before independence and we’ve done well enough out of it so far. Right, but as noted in the Richwine article the more recent arrivals aren’t progressing at the same rate. So the “it’s worked out before with the Irish” argument doesn’t hold up. Also, the number in the recent waves is far higher so there’s less impetus to assimilate. [http://nrd.nationalreview.com/article/?q=YjQ4N2EyMTQ4NzZjZmNlOWQwN2RiNTZjMWZiZDY4YzQ=](http://nrd.nationalreview.com/article/?q=YjQ4N2EyMTQ4NzZjZmNlOWQwN2RiNTZjMWZiZDY4YzQ=) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/154 "2010-04-29T21:22:31Z")
[Obama: ‘There may not be an appetite’ to tackle immigration this year.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/29/AR2010042901003.html?hpid=topnews) ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353/155 "2010-04-30T21:04:18Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Also, the number in the recent waves is far higher so there’s less impetus to assimilate. This is a key point that is completely swamped by the “Immigration: good or bad?” arguments. Some people think migration is an absolute human right and can never be restricted even if it means destroying the country, and some people think immigration should be stopped immediately, forever, by any means necessary. There’s no point in debating the issue with people in either of those groups. It’s all about the numbers. For example, I think immigration can be a good thing done the right way. I would favor a limit of about 500,000 legal immigrants a year, with no more than 25% of that total coming from any one country, and illegal immigrants deported and counted against the total. The totals and the types of immigrants accepted should be tied in some way to the demand for their skills, and noncitizens should not be eligible for public benefits. I am sure there are many arguments for and against that particular proposal, but notice how different it is from saying “I think immigration is bad and should be reduced.” Which brings me to another point: given the historically high level of immigration and the proportion of foreign-born people in the US, it seems to me that those seeking to increase it further are obligated to explain why this would be good; those seeking to restrict it to a more traditional level have less of an obligation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-immigration-reform-one-more-time/533353.md?page=7)