# Next up: Indiana and North Carolina **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2008, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-indiana-and-north-carolina/446509 "2008-04-23T05:15:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2008, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-indiana-and-north-carolina/446509/361 "2008-05-08T04:56:04Z")
[QUOTE=DSeid] How about the home version of our show? [/QUOTE] You’re right, _thats_ the very least. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2008, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-indiana-and-north-carolina/446509/362 "2008-05-08T05:04:02Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] A toaster oven, at the very least. [/QUOTE] And a bathtub? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2008, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-indiana-and-north-carolina/446509/363 "2008-05-08T06:04:22Z")
Shocking. Positively shocking. ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2008, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-indiana-and-north-carolina/446509/364 "2008-05-08T07:00:30Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Obama isn’t all that ahead when you count _elections_. :rolleyes: He has his large lead due to his superior performances in the _Caucuses_. Which are election-_like_, **but do not represent the will of the people, except for those few in the room at that point in time**. It’s \*total \*delegates that count. Not SuperDelegates, not Pledged delegates. \*\*Total Delegates. \*\* [/QUOTE] Bolding mine. Do you really believe the stuff you type? The bolded part is just like saying, “elections do not represent the will of the people, except for those few who are in a booth on election day”. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2008, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-indiana-and-north-carolina/446509/365 "2008-05-08T10:01:29Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Who gives a rat’s ass about “pledged” delegates? :rolleyes: It’s total delegates that count, and it always has been. The whole “pledged” delegates meme was something the Obama campaign dreamed up when they were behind in total delegates but wanted to have _something_. And yes, Hillary was quite a bit ahead. [/QUOTE] So you’re saying that Obama should have dropped out _before the primaries started_ because he was way behind in the votes of some party insiders. _And_ you’re the one who’s been flogging the importance of the popular vote - or at least, the more Clinton-favorable permutations of it. Anyway, I personally don’t care what you do or don’t give a rat’s ass about, because it seems that you only give a rat’s ass about whatever slender theory makes Clinton look like she’s still in the game. And even then, the logical contortions you make usually result in your arguing with yourself, as you seem to be doing here. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2008, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-indiana-and-north-carolina/446509/366 "2008-05-08T10:17:15Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Obama isn’t all that ahead when you count _elections_. :rolleyes: He has his large lead due to his superior performances in the _Caucuses_. Which are election-_like_, but do not represent the will of the people, except for those few in the room at that point in time. [/quote] “Those few in the room at [the] time.” Care to back that “few” part up with cites? Because everything I’ve seen suggested that the biggest problem with the caucuses, this primary season, was finding rooms big enough to contain “those few in the room.” Guess they must’ve had some exceedingly overweight caucus-goers. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > It’s \*total \*delegates that count. Not SuperDelegates, not Pledged delegates. \*\*Total Delegates. \*\* Well, yeah. And Obama’s currently [up by 155](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_delegate_count.html). ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2008, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-indiana-and-north-carolina/446509/367 "2008-05-08T12:04:59Z")
Anyone else noticing the frothing Hillary Supporters who are usually here doing their little dance are decidedly absent? ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2008, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-indiana-and-north-carolina/446509/368 "2008-05-08T12:26:55Z")
[QUOTE=Phlosphr] Anyone else noticing the frothing Hillary Supporters who are usually here doing their little dance are decidedly absent? [/QUOTE] They’ll be back. It was like us after Ohio/Texas when we took a little breakie. They’re taking a little breakie now. Personally, I think we’re just in a bit of a lull before Hillary ratchets up the vitriol against Obama again. Yes, she’s probably laden with the flop sweat of desperation but, like a cornered animal, this may only make her more dangerous and unpredictable. I also notice she’s still pressing for Florida and, against all logic, Michigan, and still had her drawl on yesterday in West Virginia. I actually will be surprised if she drops out before the convention. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2008, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-indiana-and-north-carolina/446509/369 "2008-05-08T12:34:02Z")
[QUOTE=Onomatopoeia] I also notice she’s still pressing for Florida and, against all logic, Michigan, and still had her drawl on yesterday in West Virginia. I actually will be surprised if she drops out before the convention. [/QUOTE] Not me, I will be surprised if she takes this to Denver. The supers will all jump in less than a month. June 4th. She’ll win West Virginia and Kentucky, but the rest will heavily go Obama - the primary season is pretty well closed up. Barring a illigitimate alien baby for Obama or evil twin… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2008, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-indiana-and-north-carolina/446509/370 "2008-05-08T13:27:22Z")
Someone up thread (or in a related thread) noted how McCain only got 70-something percent of the vote in one of these primaries. Imagine if Hillary dropped out before the next primaries-- there’s a good chance she’d still win in KT and WV, but you can bet that Obama wouldn’t take 70% of the vote. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2008, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-indiana-and-north-carolina/446509/371 "2008-05-08T13:32:02Z")
[Michigan](http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080507/NEWS15/80507111) may get seated after all, in a compromise that gives “Hillary Rodham Clinton 69 delegates and Barack Obama 59” and allows the supers. Obama may just consent to have Florida seated or in a compromise that gives them half votes. He not only can afford to be generous now he needs to be. As I have been telling **Elvis** all along, these delegates will be seated once they no longer matter and we are there. They do not catch her up in delegates nor do they change the narrative to the supers. Finding a way to seat them is part of the process of healing the party which is something that needs to be done as soon as is possible. They also allow Hillary a gracious exit in having fought for them. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2008, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-indiana-and-north-carolina/446509/372 "2008-05-08T13:42:36Z")
[QUOTE=DSeid] [Michigan](http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080507/NEWS15/80507111) may get seated after all, in a compromise that gives “Hillary Rodham Clinton 69 delegates and Barack Obama 59” and allows the supers. Obama may just consent to have Florida seated or in a compromise that gives them half votes. He not only can afford to be generous now he needs to be. As I have been telling **Elvis** all along, these delegates will be seated once they no longer matter and we are there. They do not catch her up in delegates nor do they change the narrative to the supers. Finding a way to seat them is part of the process of healing the party which is something that needs to be done as soon as is possible. They also allow Hillary a gracious exit in having fought for them. [/QUOTE] I doubt those who have been clammoring for the seating of Florida and Michigan will see this as generous or gracious on the part of Obama. If some kind of mechanism is put into place that seats those delegations, but doesn’t give Hillary the lead, her supporters will still cry foul, because it was never about disenfranchising voters. It was always about giving Hillary the lead. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2008, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-indiana-and-north-carolina/446509/373 "2008-05-08T14:10:44Z")
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99] And a bathtub? [/QUOTE] Maybe a new kitchen sink? I hear she tossed the one that she had. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2008, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-indiana-and-north-carolina/446509/374 "2008-05-08T15:01:24Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Obama isn’t all that ahead when you count _elections_. :rolleyes: He has his large lead due to his superior performances in the _Caucuses_. Which are election-_like_, but do not represent the will of the people, except for those few in the room at that point in time. [/QUOTE] But the _Michigan primary_, with only Clinton’s name on the ballot, _does_ represent the “will of the people.” I get it now. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2008, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-indiana-and-north-carolina/446509/375 "2008-05-08T15:02:48Z")
[QUOTE=Onomatopoeia] I doubt those who have been clammoring for the seating of Florida and Michigan will see this as generous or gracious on the part of Obama. If some kind of mechanism is put into place that seats those delegations, but doesn’t give Hillary the lead, her supporters will still cry foul, because it was never about disenfranchising voters. It was always about giving Hillary the lead. [/QUOTE] But in the same vein- this is not about appeasing Hillary supporters, it is about conceding the only legitimate point those supporters have WRT Michigan and Florida- that the voters may bear some resentment for delegates not being seated. To the extent that this bears any weight, then seating the delegates in a compromise goes toward healing that wound. I don’t buy it, but it is at least arguable. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2008, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-indiana-and-north-carolina/446509/376 "2008-05-08T15:28:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Obama isn’t all that ahead when you count elections. He has his large lead due to his superior performances in the Caucuses. Which are election-like, but do not represent the will of the people, except for those few in the room at that point in time. Cacucses represent the will of all the people who care enough to come out to the caucus, just as elections represent the will of all the people who care enough to come out to the election. Neither is anywhere near 100%. Besides, not being all that ahead is also known as being ahead. The Democratic primary system is a hot mess. I really hope the leadership takes some steps to unfuck it a bit before the 2012 race, or at least before it’s time to pick a Dem successor to President Obama in 2016. For now, though, it is what it is, as much as Hillary might want it to be something else. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2008, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-indiana-and-north-carolina/446509/377 "2008-05-08T17:03:57Z")
[QUOTE=stolichnaya] But in the same vein- this is not about appeasing Hillary supporters, it is about conceding the only legitimate point those supporters have WRT Michigan and Florida- that the voters may bear some resentment for delegates not being seated. To the extent that this bears any weight, then seating the delegates in a compromise goes toward healing that wound. I don’t buy it, but it is at least arguable. [/QUOTE] With respect, I doubt seriously that the average voter in either Florida or Michigan could give a damn whether or not their delegates are seated, absent efforts by media to quiz them on it or politicians to stir them up about it. I know some Michigan Democrats, so I know whereof I speak, here. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2008, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-indiana-and-north-carolina/446509/378 "2008-05-08T17:29:03Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] With respect, I doubt seriously that the average voter in either Florida or Michigan could give a damn whether or not their delegates are seated, absent efforts by media to quiz them on it or politicians to stir them up about it. I know some Michigan Democrats, so I know whereof I speak, here. 😉 [/QUOTE] BINGO! I’m a Michigan Democrat, and I could not give a flying fig whether my delegation gets seated or not. Just how many people care if their state is represented at the convention? Who, besides us junkies, even watch them? ---
**Author:** ![tds1273](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/df705f/32.png) [@tds1273](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tds1273)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2008, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-indiana-and-north-carolina/446509/379 "2008-05-08T19:03:00Z")
While I’d like to think I felt my hair ruffle a bit from **DrDeth** ’s post, I still must say that, in personal experience at least, the caucuses are wonderful. Though I must admit up front that I am quite proud of my precinct and WA’s, officially, bluest and most diverse legislative district- the Fightin’ 37th! Maybe I’m just lucky to be in a good district, but at least with our caucuses, not only can you actually see the system work right in front of you, _openly_ I might add, but they also instill the very real sense of community and involvement that has been missing in this Country for far too long. The caucus goers are not just random people either, they are quite literally our neighbors, your’s and mine. They are also the ones who are going to be, at the very least, respectfully informed. ‘Great Debates’ actually do happen at the caucuses, and even if you disagree with someone’s pick at least you get to relate with your fellow voters, which just makes the greater American story even that much more real. I will grant that do to space limitations and travel arrangements, at this time the caucus system is impractical for general election use. Obviously no system is perfect, but it can be improved rather than discarded. Arrange voting bus trips set up caucuses in more places mindful of the people around there in the community. But if you can go to the store or the park on the weekend there is no excuse for not being able to go to the caucuses other than sheer apathy. Besides, this country wasn’t founded on and made great with impersonal boxes or booths; rather, it was formed by people and communities actually coming together, thinking, talking and working for something better. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2008, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-indiana-and-north-carolina/446509/380 "2008-05-08T19:42:18Z")
I’m really sick and tired of this false meme that Obama is only ahead because of caucus states that “don’t represent the will of the people”, and that Hillary is ahead in primary states. It’s a flat out falsehood. ```auto **State Type Obama Clinton** Virgin Islands Other 1,772 149 Iowa Caucus 940 737[sup]*[/sup] Nevada Caucus 4,805 5,407[sup]o[/sup] Alaska Caucus 6,674 2,194 American Samoa Caucus 121 163 Colorado Caucus 80,113 38,839 Idaho Caucus 16,880 3,655 Maine Caucus 2,079 1,397[sup]†[/sup] Wyoming Caucus 5,378 3,312 Minnesota Caucus 142,109 68,994 New Mexico Caucus 67,531 68,654 North Dakota Caucus 11,625 6,948 Nebraska Caucus 26,126 12,445 Washington Caucus 259,369 243,338 Kansas Caucus 27,172 9,462 Hawaii Caucus 28,347 8,835 **681,041** **474,529** New Hampshire Primary 104,815 112,404 South Carolina Primary 295,091 141,128 Alabama Primary 300,319 223,089 Arizona Primary 193,126 229,501 Arkansas Primary 78,898 206,983 California Primary 2,186,662 2,608,184 Connecticut Primary 179,742 165,426 Delaware Primary 1,148 40,760 Georgia Primary 704,247 330,026 Illinois Primary 1,318,234 667,930 Utah Primary 74,538 51,333 Mississippi Primary 265,502 159,221 Pennsylvania Primary 1,046,220 1,260,444 Indiana Primary 630,399 644,594 North Carolina Primary 875,683 652,824 Massachusetts Primary 511,680 705,185 Missouri Primary 406,917 395,185 New Jersey Primary 501,372 613,500 New York Primary 751,019 1,068,496 Oklahoma Primary 130,130 228,480 Tennessee Primary 252,874 336,245 Maryland Primary 532,665 314,211 Virginia Primary 627,820 349,766 Wisconsin Primary 646,851 453,954 Rhode Island Primary 75,316 108,949 Texas Primary 1,358,785 1,459,814 Vermont Primary 91,901 59,806 Louisiana Primary 220,632 136,925 D.C. Primary 93,386 29,470 Ohio Primary 979,025 1,207,806 **15,484,997** **14,961,639** [sup]*[/sup]The vote totals for the Iowa Democratic Party are State Delegate Equivalents, which represent the estimated number of state convention delegates that the candidates would have, based on the caucus results. [sup]o[/sup]The vote totals for the Nevada Democratic Party reflect the number of county delegates won by the candidates. [sup]†[/sup]Vote totals are the presidential preferences of the approximately 3,500 delegates elected to the state convention Sources: http://politics.nytimes.com/election-guide/2008/primaries/democraticprimaries/index.html http://election.cbsnews.com/campaign2008/d_delegateScorecard.shtml (The NY Times site, where I started gathering data, hasn't posted numbers from Pennsylvania to current, so those numbers were taken from the CBS site. Neither site has numbers posted for Guam or Dems Abroad, so they are excluded from totals here.) ``` As you can see, he’s beating her in Primary states, too! So even if you didn’t count the Caucus states, **he’s still ahead by 523,358 votes!** And guess what – even if you include **Florida _as is_** , where Hillary’s popular vote lead is 288,167, **Barack Obama is still ahead by 235,191 votes** in the Primary states _alone_! And _even if_ you want to stretch credulity and inlcude Michigan, giving Obama the [236,726](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/01/16/uncommitted-wins-big-in_n_81834.html) votes that went to “uncommitted”, vs Clinton’s 328,151, that still only depletes his lead in Primary states to 143,766. This is just getting stupid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-indiana-and-north-carolina/446509.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/next-up-indiana-and-north-carolina/446509.md?page=20)