# NFC East 2008 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 3, 2008, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2008/461891 "2008-09-03T17:23:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2008/461891/21 "2008-09-05T00:15:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > _Throws bucket of water on **LOUNE** _ > > Wake up, sahib! Football! Come, come! _splutter, cough_ Foot…ball? What’s a football? Do the Lions play football? (yes, that’s a blatant setup) ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2008/461891/22 "2008-09-05T00:16:11Z")
What the hell was Peter King smoking at Redskins camp? Campbell looks terrible out there. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2008/461891/23 "2008-09-05T00:21:15Z")
The Cardinals have a game at the Redskins in week 3. I"m not as nervous about that game right now. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2008/461891/24 "2008-09-05T02:30:28Z")
Last play of the game looked like Kiwi got a high ankle sprain. I’m praying that’s not the case, because that would leave him no better than Ronaldo Wynn for the rest of the season. I am aware he got up and walked (limped, really) off the field; that’s what you’d expect from a high ankle sprain. Those fuckers take half a year of not playing to fully go away. Look at how it nagged Buress all last year. He got a high ankle sprain in August, and wasn’t able to practice until December. Let’s just practice some denial and pretend that last play never happened, because it steps on the next point I wanted to make. All week long, all I’ve been hearing about is that the Giants lost 22 sacks in Strahan and Osi, and where were they going to get those from? Tuck and Kiwi, of course. That’s a no-brainer. The real question is: where will they get Tuck’s 10 sacks from? Nowhere. That’s the real downgrade. Oddly, Osi’s injury didn’t affect that, because without it Kiwi would have been a linebacker. > [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > I see a lot of Cleveland/Cincy-esque games in your future, Ellis… heh. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2008/461891/25 "2008-09-05T05:33:39Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > I like Tuck as well, but, OTOH, let’s not start sucking each other’s popsicles just yet. You’re [three years late](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6725348&postcount=76) with this sentiment. Tuck is and has always been a monster. I could see it plain as day three games into his rookie season, as evidenced by the linked post. If you’re _still_ doubting him, well, you might enjoy posting on [giants.com](http://giants.com) with the rest of the haters. That link, btw, was also when you predicted Tiki’s ability would start to crumble by the second half of the 2006 season. heh. I swear I often feel like the only optimistic Giants fan on the planet. Every Giants fan I know in real life, all the Giants fans on this board, and the vast majority of [giants.com](http://giants.com) posters are true “glass is 90% empty” pessimists. It’s almost like they have this idealized vision of what a Giant should be, and any mere mortal human player or coach\* is guaranteed to fall short of the mark and therefore be unworthy of wearing the uniform. \*Speaking of which, the Redskins were fools for not hiring Jim Fassel. The guy was Vince Lombardi compared to the clearly incompetent Jim Zorn. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2008/461891/26 "2008-09-05T09:48:10Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > You’re [three years late](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6725348&postcount=76) with this sentiment. Tuck is and has always been a monster. I could see it plain as day three games into his rookie season, as evidenced by the linked post. Come on now. If you were really confident that Tuck, the 3rd round rookie, was going to be a monster after three games in the pros, it was either a fan’s bias, luck, or a phenomenal scouting job – most likely a combination of all three. It’s not because he was obviously world-class from the start and I just had my head in the sand. Like I said, I really do like him and I’m glad we signed him to the extension, but he’s never been a full-time player and most of the time this season he won’t be doing the thing he was great at last season. I’m pretty sure he’ll be good this year, but it’s entirely possible that “good” is all we’ll get out him in the new role; there’s nothing wrong with that. (And, of course, it’s also entirely possible that he’ll have 15 sacks and be an MVP candidate. It’s just not any kind of a lock is what I’m saying.) > [@](#): > > That link, btw, was also when you predicted Tiki’s ability would start to crumble by the second half of the 2006 season. heh. I was wrong, but it’s a mistake I’ll be happy to make in the future. Tiki was an outlier; show me 10 RBs with similar careers up to that point and I’ll predict decline for all of them – I’ll be right 9 times. > [@](#): > > I swear I often feel like the only optimistic Giants fan on the planet. Every Giants fan I know in real life, all the Giants fans on this board, and the vast majority of [giants.com](http://giants.com) posters are true “glass is 90% empty” pessimists. It’s almost like they have this idealized vision of what a Giant should be, and any mere mortal human player or coach\* is guaranteed to fall short of the mark and therefore be unworthy of wearing the uniform. Yeah, it does seem like Giants fans are an unusually dour bunch. Of course, to the rest of us, you seem _waaayyy_ overconfident. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2008/461891/27 "2008-09-05T12:44:55Z")
The O-Line looked great. The running backs looked great. Plaxico Burress looked incredible and very happy about his 2 year extension and raise. Eli looked a little shaky except for the first drive. I enjoyed seeing Jacobs run over Red Skins. That is always a good sight for a \*\*Giant \*\*fan. The defense looked very good but the last play scared the shit out of me. We are thinner then I like of defense and that can really hurt us. Special Teams did not impress me last night, hopefully that was just shaking off rust and a need to work as a unit. The Skins looked very bad on offense but their D looked okay at times. I still think they are more likely to win 4 then 8. I guess I should make some weak predictions: **Giants** **11-5** Cowboys 10-6 Eagles 8-8 Skins 5-11 > [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > _splutter, cough_ > > Foot…ball? What’s a football? > > Do the Lions play football? Only touch. > [@](#): > > (yes, that’s a blatant setup) I have no shame ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2008/461891/28 "2008-09-05T13:08:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I see a lot of Cleveland/Cincy-esque games in your future, Ellis… and I know how you hate high scoring football. …or not. Actually, I’m not reading anything into the Giants’ first two games, especially after last year. I still don’t think that defense can hold up. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2008/461891/29 "2008-09-05T14:26:03Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > I was wrong, but it’s a mistake I’ll be happy to make in the future. Tiki was an outlier; show me 10 RBs with similar careers up to that point and I’ll predict decline for all of them – I’ll be right 9 times. No, actually, you were right but for all the wrong reasons. In the end they didn’t need to extend him past 2006 because that’s when he retired anyway. The heart of the debate was that I thought his remarkably few carries would easily extend his career, while you countered that his large number of _touches_ was in the normal range so he shouldn’t be expected to be able to play longer because of less wear and tear. I still say that catches don’t count; look how many WRs are still playing from that 96 draft. How many RBs from that draft still around? But that’s mostly moot. As for Tuck, I’d guess you’d have to call it a phenomenal scouting job. I have every game of his career on tape, and just rewatched the entire 2005 (plus 2006 & 2007) seasons over the summer. Tuck was an easily-spotted monster in his first few games. He just looked like a menace. But the one play that clinched it for me was in his third game, at San Diego. Chargers hike the ball on their own 5, run off tackle right. Tuck was lined up on the the defensive right, away from the direction of the play. Tomlinson was never even approached as he rounded the corner, and just took off down the sideline. 60 yards later he was caught from behind and tackled by Justin Tuck. Any DE that can do _that_ is a monster in my book. [Cite:](http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay?game_id=28569&displayPage=tab_play_by_play&season=2005&week=REG3&override=true) > [@](#): > > San Diego Chargers at 06:33 > 1-10-SD 9 (6:33) L.Tomlinson right end pushed ob at NYG 29 for 62yards (J.Tuck). ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2008/461891/30 "2008-09-05T14:35:37Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Actually, I’m not reading anything into the Giants’ first two games, especially after last year. I’m guessing this wouldn’t be your position if last night’s game was 45-42. But I’ll agree with you, because the Redskins didn’t look like a professional team out there. Zorn’s clock management was even worse than Herm Edwards, which I didn’t think was humanly possible. And the playcalling was downright pathetic. When down by two scores with under three minutes to play and 60 yards to go for a TD, running up the gut followed by tossing it out to the flat are pretty low on the “smart things to do” list. Let’s see how the defense looks against the Rams next week. I think we can all agree that early indications look promising, as do both starting ends. (I still say there is no way to replace the 10 sacks from DE #3.) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2008/461891/31 "2008-09-05T15:14:23Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I’m guessing this wouldn’t be your position if last night’s game was 45-42. But I’ll agree with you, because the Redskins didn’t look like a professional team out there. Zorn’s clock management was even worse than Herm Edwards, which I didn’t think was humanly possible. And the playcalling was downright pathetic. When down by two scores with under three minutes to play and 60 yards to go for a TD, running up the gut followed by tossing it out to the flat are pretty low on the “smart things to do” list. I’m getting sick to death of offensive coaches trying to fit square pegs in round holes. Campbell is another “big arm, no touch” passer (like Mark Brunell, Byron Leftwich, etc.) and those guys do not work in the West Coast system. I would have thought the Vick experiment would have been enough to demonstrate that. Campbell _needs_ to be in a Norv Turner-style offense: run, run, run, then chuck it deep. That’s why he did pretty well under Al Saunders (for a young quarterback with no prior experience with that system). The really weird part is that Portis was relatively effective. There were two series on which they ran the ball on three consecutive plays, and both resulted in first downs. Of course, on the series after each, they threw three straight times- clang, clang, completion short of the marker. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Jules\_Andre](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jules_andre/32/9334_2.png) [@Jules\_Andre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jules_Andre)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2008/461891/32 "2008-09-05T16:43:47Z")
The Eagles hate here is silly. They were 8-8 (somehow this qualifies as terrible), and that they were in the top ten in offense and defense was already mentioned. This was a horribly snake-bitten team last year, and if you go back to results of their games, they should have easily been 10-6 or 11-5. Just a little less bad luck and they’re in the playoffs. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2008/461891/33 "2008-09-05T17:13:55Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I’m guessing this wouldn’t be your position if last night’s game was 45-42. But I’ll agree with you, because the Redskins didn’t look like a professional team out there. Zorn’s clock management was even worse than Herm Edwards, which I didn’t think was humanly possible. And the playcalling was downright pathetic. **When down by two scores with under three minutes to play and 60 yards to go for a TD, running up the gut followed by tossing it out to the flat are pretty low on the “smart things to do” list.** > > Let’s see how the defense looks against the Rams next week. I think we can all agree that early indications look promising, as do both starting ends. (I still say there is no way to replace the 10 sacks from DE #3.) I was wondering about that as well, particularly given that the deep ball is something Campbell can throw well. I cringed. ---
**Author:** ![Madd\_Maxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Madd\_Maxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madd_Maxx)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2008/461891/34 "2008-09-05T17:16:33Z")
I missed the first quarter because of class, but that is why Tivo was invented. 🙂 I believed I said earlier that my Redskins weren’t making the playoffs this year. I’m standing by that prediction. The Good: Clinton Portis looked pretty good, when the O-line bothered to block anyone. That punter Brooks we drafted seems to have a decent leg. The Bad: Stephon Heyer is not an improvement over Jon Jansen. Whatever happened to that really good TE the Redskins had last year, Cooley? He made the Pro Bowl last year, played the whole preseason and everything. Didn’t see him anywhere last night. Our cornerbacks dropped at least 5 catchable balls that could have been picks. Randle El, seriously, 2 false start penalties? On a WR? The Ugly: Maybe we could try covering Plexiglass with a player that isn’t a midget. Just a suggestion, but the dude is 6’-15" and just got paid $35 M. Maybe we could cover him at least on passing downs. Our linebacks insisted on arm tackling the G-men’s RB’s. You know, the one’s wearing yellow and black with the words Caterpillar down the side. They also got stuffed by NY’s O-line on almost every blitz. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2008/461891/35 "2008-09-05T17:25:45Z")
> [@Madd\_Maxx](#): > > Clinton Portis looked pretty good, when the O-line bothered to block anyone. Considering that the Giants were barely bothering to defend the pass I thought Portis looked terrific. The one glaring error came on that longish (25 yard?) run- he beat the last man, one of the safeties, and had a clear run to the endzone, but made an unnecessary cut and ran right back into the guy. > [@](#): > > Whatever happened to that really good TE the Redskins had last year, Cooley? He made the Pro Bowl last year, played the whole preseason and everything. Didn’t see him anywhere last night. Our cornerbacks dropped at least 5 catchable balls that could have been picks. Randle El, seriously, 2 false start penalties? On a WR? Cooley made one catch for seven yards. He had another one of 20+ yards called back on a hold. If I’d been calling the plays in that game I would have been drawing up half the pass plays just for him. LaRon Landry was the one who missed out on two of those pickable balls, and to be fair, he was at full extension and at least 35" off the ground when he made contact with one of them. Fred Smoot dropped one, but he did pick off one. Those false starts on Randle El were inexcusable, but he was the only effective receiver they had. > [@](#): > > Maybe we could try covering Plexiglass with a player that isn’t a midget. Just a suggestion, but the dude is 6’-15" and just got paid $35 M. Maybe we could cover him at least on passing downs.. Plax was making his catches despite (mostly) excellent coverage, and half of them time he was diving for them. I’m not sure there’s a corner in the league who could have prevented more than 2-3 of those. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2008/461891/36 "2008-09-05T18:05:57Z")
What did we see yesterday, a bad Skin offense or a good Giant defense.? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2008/461891/37 "2008-09-05T18:12:30Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > What did we see yesterday, a bad Skin offense or a good Giant defense.? Both. Seriously, the Giants ‘D’ did a good job and the Skin QB looked seriously overmatched. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2008/461891/38 "2008-09-05T18:35:11Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > That link, btw, was also when you predicted Tiki’s ability would start to crumble by the second half of the 2006 season. heh. Actually, going back and reading again, this is incorrect. In [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6912984&postcount=287), I said: > [@VarlosZ](#): > > I know it looks like it now, but talk to me in Week 9 of the **2007** season, when Tiki will be 32 and will still have 1.5 high-salary years left. . . > > . . . **Based on historical trends, I think it’s probable that Tiki will have another very good year in '06** , though there is also a real possibility of his skills suffering greatly. In '07, the first year of the extension, it seems at least as likely as not that he will fall off the cliff (IMHO, it’s probable). By '08, A Tiki Barber whose production even approaches his '05 production would be an anomaly of historic proportions. > [@Ellis Dee](#): > > The heart of the debate was that I thought his remarkably few carries would easily extend his career, while you countered that his large number of touches was in the normal range so he shouldn’t be expected to be able to play longer because of less wear and tear. I still say that catches don’t count; My main point wasn’t that (carries+receptions) matters more than just carries (though I did make that assumption), but that [it’s not so much mileage that causes a RB to break down, it’s age](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6736338&postcount=108). Also from [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=340101&page=6): > [@Me](#): > > Nonetheless, history isn’t comforting to me. By the start of next season, Tiki will be 31 and have about 2,500 touches. That’s a decent number of touches, but even if it’s only carries that should be considered, the list above would suggest that age is more important than mileage. Now, it appears that I may have been wrong about counting touches instead of carries. Football Outsiders has found that, at least on a year-to-year basis, adding receptions to carries hurts your ability to predict workload-based decline instead of helping it. (You’ve heard of the Curse of 370, yes?) However, my larger point – that to predict when a RB will start to decline you should look at his age, not his career carries – received some support a year after our discussion in the [profootballreference.com](http://profootballreference.com) blog. (Yes, I read the [profootballreference.com](http://profootballreference.com) blog. I’m a dork.) [Part 1](http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=66). [Part 2](http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=69). [Part 3](http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=71). From Part 3: > [@Doug Drinen](#): > > So I took all running back seasons since 1978 by running backs age 27 or older, and I recorded the following data: > > 1. His VBD value for that year > 2. His career VBD prior to that year > 3. His career workload prior to that year > 4. His age > 5. The number of career rushes he had after that season > > I plugged all that data into the computer and it spit out the following formula: > > Future rushes =~ 3203 - 104_age + 2.3_VBDLastYr + .813_PreviousVBD - .13_PreviousRsh > > For the purposes of this discussion, the key number is the -.13. It says: all else equal, every rushing attempt you had before last year will cost you .13 predicted future rushes. _So if two backs are completely equal in every way, but one of them had an extra 500 rushes when he was young, you would expect the player with the higher workload to have 500.13 = 65 fewer rushes during the rest of his career. The 104 next to “age” indicates that, all else equal, a player who is one year older will expect to have 104 fewer carries left in the tank. Combining these two numbers, we could infer that it would take about 800 previous rushes to age a back as much as one chronological year does_\*. . . > > . . . This post was supposed to be about age vs. workload and for the first time we can actually put a number on it. The number is .13. That’s how many future rushes each past rush costs you. > > Let’s talk a bit about that number and the uncertainty associated with it. Regression answers two basic questions: > > 1. What is our best guess at the number? > > 2. given the sample size and the amount of variation we saw in our input data, how sure are we that the number isn’t zero? > > We answered #1 above. It’s .13. I didn’t tell you, though, that the answer to #2 is “not very.” [For regression buffs, the p-value is about .22.] **The point is: even though we have an estimate of .13, we do not have statistically significant evidence, in the generally agreed-upon sense, that workload has any effect on future career length.** In other words, maybe it takes a full three season’s worth of carries to age a RB as much one calendar year does, and maybe carries has no bearing on the matter at all. Either way, it’s support for my argument. ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2008/461891/39 "2008-09-05T18:59:48Z")
Quick note from the Factual Stats Department: Eli Manning currently leads the National Football League in rushing touchdowns. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2008/461891/40 "2008-09-05T19:23:48Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > The heart of the debate was that I thought his remarkably few carries would easily extend his career, while you countered that his large number of _touches_ was in the normal range so he shouldn’t be expected to be able to play longer because of less wear and tear. I still say that catches don’t count; look how many WRs are still playing from that 96 draft. How many RBs from that draft still around? But that’s mostly moot. I defy you to find an active wideout from the '96 (or any) draft who has as many touches as, say, Mike Alstott- who was a part-time player for the majority of his career. Alstott had 1,666 career touches (and fewer than 75 for each of the last five years of his career). Jerry Rice had 1,549 career receptions, plus 87 carries and 1 punt return. Anyway, I think you’re missing a big part of the running back catches puzzle- wideouts generally make catches well beyond the defensive linemen, and more often than not beyond the linebackers. That means they’re getting hit by smaller guys. And, while those guys may be moving faster, wideouts don’t often get gang tackled. I’d say the cumulative beating from catching 100 screen passes and being hit by a couple of linemen is the same as a wideout takes from 250 quick outs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2008/461891.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2008/461891.md?page=3)