# NFC East 2011 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 11, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382 "2011-08-11T22:30:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/121 "2011-10-03T03:37:41Z")
I just caught some of the Eagles-Niners game at O’Hare (made noooo sense with a close Bears game going on, but whatever), does anyone know what Ronnie Brown was doing when he fumbled at the goal line? It looked like he was going to throw it or something, but they didn’t have the volume up or the CC on. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/122 "2011-10-03T05:20:26Z")
In his brain, he was throwing it to avoid losing the yardage. It was a non-QB\* thinking he could save yardage by “throwing it away.” What was especially stupid of him was that under no circumstances was passing a good move. At worst he would have lost a yard or two near the goal line. At best he would have been flagged for intentional grounding. Now we get to have Dallas and Philly arguing over who had the worse loss. Ha ha. \*: Brown ran the Wildcat while in Miami, and ran it well. This background led directly to the play in question. ---
**Author:** ![Jules\_Andre](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jules_andre/32/9334_2.png) [@Jules\_Andre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jules_Andre)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/123 "2011-10-03T06:56:34Z")
He claimed it was a called run/pass option. If you watch the replay closely it looks like the FB was kinda sorta around where he may have been attempting to throw. The Eagles have turned the ball over in the red zone three straight games. ---
**Author:** ![soulmurk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@soulmurk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulmurk)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/124 "2011-10-03T16:55:11Z")
Only Arizona crapping the bed yesterday marred an otherwise perfect day in the NFC East for me. Those jerks. It’s only four games and it’s bound to change sooner rather than later, but I’m pretty sure that right about now there are more than a few people looking at the NFC East standings and wondering if they’ve been listed upside down. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/125 "2011-10-03T16:56:43Z")
That would be “referees crapping the bed”, you mean. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/126 "2011-10-03T17:59:59Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > I’m not sure about other teams, but I can’t imagine that beating the Giants and barely getting past the Cards at home means the Skins can really look past _anyone_ at this point. Were we going into this game without that ugly second-half no-show on Monday night, maybe, but as it stands right now I can’t really say with any confidence the Skins are the better team vs. anybody. Indeed. Right now, they’re beating the teams they can beat, but not in a way that gives anyone any confidence that they’ll keep doing even that. Like you say, it does have the silver lining that they probably realize they have no business looking past _anybody_. But it also means that 3-1 record isn’t indicative of a particularly good team. The defense isn’t bad, but the offense just doesn’t have it, even against mediocre defenses. ---
**Author:** ![soulmurk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@soulmurk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulmurk)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/127 "2011-10-03T18:23:36Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > The defense isn’t bad, but [del]the offense[/del] Rex Grossman just doesn’t have it, even against mediocre defenses. Fixed that for ya! ---
**Author:** ![soulmurk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@soulmurk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulmurk)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/128 "2011-10-03T18:28:16Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That would be “referees crapping the bed”, you mean. I didn’t watch the game, didn’t watch the highlights of the game and didn’t really pay any attention to any of the discussion about the game or the call, so I speak from a certain amount of ignorance about how brutal the call was or wasn’t… but with that said, what I do know is that Arizona was leading by ten with five minutes to go and lost. That takes more than one questionable call to do. ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/129 "2011-10-03T19:54:31Z")
As much as I love seeing Philly failures like that one, the best is yet to come\*. Professional POS Howard Eskin will have to get his lips surgically detached from Andy Reid’s ass and [get pedaling](http://deadspin.com/5846058/a-philly-radio-guy-said-he-would-take-a-bike-from-philadelphia-to-san-francisco-if-the-eagles-lost): > [@](#): > > “I’ll take a bike from Philadelphia to San Francisco [if the Niners beat the Eagles]. Yes. There’s no way the Eagles go 1-3. None. Absolutely none. … They can’t lose to the 49ers.” Bonus props to article commenter “Steve U”: > [@](#): > > You know, Howard - I’m sure no one would complain if, rather than riding 3,000 miles west, you just rode 100 miles east. \*Well, not really – I know there’s zero chance this useless prick walks five feet out of his way, let alone rides nearly 3,000 miles. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/130 "2011-10-03T20:50:37Z")
Bravo, **Hal.** Bravo! ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/131 "2011-10-04T14:57:47Z")
> [@soulmurk](#): > > Fixed that for ya! If only. The offense doesn’t have it with Rex Grossman at QB, nor did it have it with Donovan McNabb or Jason Campbell or Mark Brunell or Patrick Ramsey or Tony Banks or even Brad Johnson’s second and final season with the Redskins. From 2000 to the present, according to Pro Football Reference, our offense, in terms of points scored, has ranked 24th, 28th, 25th, 22nd, 31st, 13th, 20th, 18th, 28th, 26th, 25th, and currently 21st. Thank goodness we’ve had a pretty good defense for most of the years beginning with 2, but its efforts have largely been wasted due to the futility on offense. ---
**Author:** ![soulmurk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@soulmurk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulmurk)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/132 "2011-10-04T16:07:31Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > If only. > > The offense doesn’t have it with Rex Grossman at QB, nor did it have it with Donovan McNabb or Jason Campbell or Mark Brunell or Patrick Ramsey or Tony Banks or even Brad Johnson’s second and final season with the Redskins. > > From 2000 to the present, according to Pro Football Reference, our offense, in terms of points scored, has ranked 24th, 28th, 25th, 22nd, 31st, 13th, 20th, 18th, 28th, 26th, 25th, and currently 21st. > > Thank goodness we’ve had a pretty good defense for most of the years beginning with 2, but its efforts have largely been wasted due to the futility on offense. Not exactly silver lining stats, but they’re a bit misleading because it implies that #1 offense = success when, over the same time period, the SB winning teams have averaged the 9th best scoring offense. Regardless, you’re absolutely right. Rex isn’t the only problem, and saying he is is an oversimplification. I do think, however, that they’ve finally got the right guy calling the plays, they’ve got themselves a good situation at RB and TE and their OL looks light years better than it has of late. With a few upgrades, especially at WR, they’ll be able to remedy their poor production, particularly in the red zone. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/133 "2011-10-04T16:31:33Z")
> [@soulmurk](#): > > I didn’t watch the game, didn’t watch the highlights of the game and didn’t really pay any attention to any of the discussion about the game or the call, so I speak from a certain amount of ignorance about how brutal the call was or wasn’t… but with that said, what I do know is that Arizona was leading by ten with five minutes to go and lost. That takes more than one questionable call to do. Yeah, but they wouldn’t have done it without the call. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/134 "2011-10-04T16:42:54Z")
> [@soulmurk](#): > > … and their OL looks light years better than it has of late. With a few upgrades, especially at WR, they’ll be able to remedy their poor production, particularly in the red zone. Both of these are great points. I think the neglect of the OL was a big reason for the low offensive stats **RTFirefly** cited. And it’s been too easy to shut down any deep threat simply by closing down Moss. ---
**Author:** ![soulmurk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@soulmurk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulmurk)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/135 "2011-10-04T16:43:17Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Yeah, but they wouldn’t have done it without the call. Maybe, maybe not. Point is, they gave up a two score lead in less than 5 minutes. Bad call or not, they never should have been in that position to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/136 "2011-10-04T16:48:41Z")
They definitely would not have come back. [Arizona would have had the ball with 3:00ish to play and the Giants were out of timeouts](http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011100209/2011/REG4/giants@cardinals#tab=analyze&recap=quicktake&menu=highlights&analyze=playbyplay). I hate that kind of reasoning. They have two rookie corners. They’re going to be vulnerable to the pass. Most NFL games come down to one play. If the official foul up that play it’s not the losing team’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/137 "2011-10-04T16:57:51Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Both of these are great points. I think the neglect of the OL was a big reason for the low offensive stats **RTFirefly** cited. And it’s been too easy to shut down any deep threat simply by closing down Moss. Gaffney’s had some good games. Granted he’s just a stopgap, but he’s been a solid contributor where there was previously no one. If Armstrong could stay healthy they’ve got a decent wide receiving corps. They’re not great, but so far they’ve been catching almost everything thrown their way (least drops in the league). I’ll take that. ---
**Author:** ![soulmurk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@soulmurk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulmurk)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/138 "2011-10-04T17:11:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > They definitely would not have come back. [Arizona would have had the ball with 3:00ish to play and the Giants were out of timeouts](http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011100209/2011/REG4/giants@cardinals#tab=analyze&recap=quicktake&menu=highlights&analyze=playbyplay). You can’t say that with absolute certainty. There’s no guarantee they’d have been able to kill off 3 minutes. > [@](#): > > I hate that kind of reasoning. They have two rookie corners. They’re going to be vulnerable to the pass. Most NFL games come down to one play. If the official foul up that play it’s not the losing team’s fault. And I hate this kind of reasoning, where the problem was one play that some outside force screwed up and not a failing by the team itself. Those CBs had done a pretty good job up until that point, limiting the Giants to 17 points on two rushing TDs and a FG. Arizona got the ball after the first Giants’ TD and went 3-and-out and gave the ball right back. They also got the ball back with 2:35 left and failed to convert on a 4th and 2. They had their chances and they blew it… and this is without even getting into the validity of the penalty call which, if I’m reading things properly, turns out to have been the correct call anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/139 "2011-10-04T17:29:39Z")
Well, I hate that you hate it. There is almost no plausible scenario - definitely no scenario that has actually happened - in which you couldn’t say “They had their chances” of the losing team, but that doesn’t really have anything to do with the complaint. The 1972 mens’ basketball team had its chances. England had its chances in the Hand of God game. Missouri had its chances in the 5th down game. Every team in every game has some chances and takes some and doesn’t take others. There’s never a game where the referees just blow the whistle every time one team touches the ball. So what? The point is, assuming the call was a blown call, one team took advantage of enough of the chances that they were in a position to win without the call being blown. Therefore, that blown call was a big deal. If the call hadn’t’ve been blown, and the team went on to lose anyway, then _that_ would’ve been a good time to say they had their chances. Declaring by fiat that officiating doesn’t decide games is just a thing you say to players as a motivational tool to keep their heads in the game, not a realistic description of what has ever happened on a playing field. It’d be just as true to say that the players don’t decide the game. Officiating decides almost every game, in the sense that if the calls are bad enough, the outcome will go the other way. When a game is close, and an important call goes the wrong way, you’re asking people to live in a fantasy land not to blame the game on that decision exactly the same way they’d blame a game on a player who makes a terrible play. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/140 "2011-10-04T17:52:54Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > When a game is close, and an important call goes the wrong way, you’re asking people to live in a fantasy land not to blame the game on that decision exactly the same way they’d blame a game on a player who makes a terrible play. When a game is close, any random event going the wrong way can change the outcome of the game. This is why you don’t get to whine about these singular weird plays “losing” the game for you. If you only play well enough to be in a close game, you are inherently allowing chance to change the outcome. Sometimes chance is a bad call, or a bad play, or a great play, or a weird bounce. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382.md?page=8)