# NFC East 2011 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 11, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382 "2011-08-11T22:30:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![soulmurk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@soulmurk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulmurk)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/161 "2011-10-05T15:20:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The Cardinals had to get a stop on one of the last two drives to win the game. Or run out the clock and/or score on one of their own final two possessions. > [@](#): > > They got a stop on the last drive, and it was taken away by the officials. They could have stopped the Giants on the previous drive instead, but they didn’t. That doesn’t mean they didn’t do enough to win the game by stopping them on the drive in which the call occurred. Not the argument. The argument is that it isn’t unreasonable to expect a team up by 10 points late in the fourth quarter to win the game. They didn’t. They had a call go against them (and it turns out it was the right call), but regardless of the call being right or wrong, they still had multiple chances to do something, anything, to win the game and didn’t. > [@](#): > > By your logic, a team that loses because of a bad call can _never_ be upset about the call, because hey, they should have won anyway. As I pointed out above, most NFL games come down to one play, so saying a team should make some other play just doesn’t make sense. They didn’t lose because of a bad call. Putting aside the fact that in the end it was the right call, the call didn’t end the game. Even if it was a bad call, which it appears it wasn’t, the Giants didn’t go ahead because of it. They scored the go-ahead TD on the next play: an easy 29 yard catch and run that was poorly defended. The Cardinals then got the ball with 2:35 left, the two-minute warning and two time-outs and failed to score. Because they failed on both defense and offense when both had chances to win the game, both before and after the call, it’s a cop-out to blame it on the call. Like I said before, if that makes you feel better about the Cardinals, then so be it, but you can probably expect a long season of getting screwed by the refs. > [@](#): > > Would have been difficult for the Giants to score _without the ball_, you know. Based on the results of the last few drives, it’s probably safe to assume they’d have gotten it back in about 4 plays anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/162 "2011-10-05T15:41:58Z")
> [@soulmurk](#): > > Not the argument. The argument is that it isn’t unreasonable to expect a team up by 10 points late in the fourth quarter to win the game. They didn’t. They had a call go against them (and it turns out it was the right call), but regardless of the call being right or wrong, they still had multiple chances to do something, anything, to win the game and didn’t. If that’s the argument, it’s one you’re having with yourself. Nobody is disputing that the Cardinals choked the game away. The point is that despite their choke job they almost certainly would have won if not for the call. By your logic, _no_ bad call is really an issue, no matter how egregious, because teams on the wrong end still have multiple chances to win games. > [@](#): > > Like I said before, if that makes you feel better about the Cardinals, then so be it, but you can probably expect a long season of getting screwed by the refs. I have no idea where you got the idea that I’m a Cardinals fan. Other than having Kevin Kolb on one of my fantasy teams I really couldn’t give a shit about the Cardinals. What I don’t get is how otherwise logical people allow it to fly out of the window when it comes to sports. > [@](#): > > Based on the results of the last few drives, it’s probably safe to assume they’d have gotten it back in about 4 plays anyway. The Cardinals ran for 156 yards on the day at 4.9 yards per carry. It’s probably safe to assume they wouldn’t. You said yourself that you didn’t even watch the game, remember? ---
**Author:** ![soulmurk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@soulmurk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulmurk)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/163 "2011-10-05T16:14:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > If that’s the argument, it’s one you’re having with yourself. Nobody is disputing that the Cardinals choked the game away. The point is that despite their choke job they almost certainly would have won if not for the call. And now, if I may borrow your patronizing tone from earlier, we’ve reached the crux of the argument. There is little evidence to suggest that that is the case. They had a chance the very next play after the call and gave up the go-ahead score. > [@](#): > > By your logic, _no_ bad call is really an issue, no matter how egregious, because teams on the wrong end still have multiple chances to win games. Not my logic at all. By my logic a team up by 10 points late in the fourth quarter with at least 4 chances to close out the game can’t point to a questionable call halfway through those chances as the reason they lost. Like everything else, interpretation of the effect of the call depends on the context. > [@](#): > > I have no idea where you got the idea that I’m a Cardinals fan. Other than having Kevin Kolb on one of my fantasy teams I really couldn’t give a shit about the Cardinals. Your fierce and misguided defense of them. > [@](#): > > What I don’t get is how otherwise logical people allow it to fly out of the window when it comes to sports. Says the guy illogically defending an illogical stance about a team he doesn’t care about to another guy who doesn’t care about either team either. > [@](#): > > The Cardinals ran for 156 yards on the day at 4.9 yards per carry. It’s probably safe to assume they wouldn’t. And yet they went 3-and-out on their penultimate drive when a few first downs would likely have ended the game. Then followed that up with giving up a sack to a four man rush on 2nd-and-1 and failing to convert on 4th-and-2 on their final drive. > [@](#): > > You said yourself that you didn’t even watch the game, remember? And yet I’m somehow still able to read a play-by-play! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/164 "2011-10-05T16:20:55Z")
> [@soulmurk](#): > > And now, if I may borrow your patronizing tone from earlier, we’ve reached the crux of the argument. There is little evidence to suggest that that is the case. They had a chance the very next play after the call and gave up the go-ahead score. The crux is that they _shouldn’t have had to._ ---
**Author:** ![soulmurk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@soulmurk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulmurk)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/165 "2011-10-05T16:37:36Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The crux is that they _shouldn’t have had to._ You’re absolutely right. The Cardinals should have never let it get to that point. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/166 "2011-10-05T16:39:15Z")
No, they shouldn’t. That doesn’t mean the call didn’t fuck them. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/167 "2011-10-05T17:46:32Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No, they shouldn’t. That doesn’t mean the call didn’t fuck them. The right call doesn’t fuck anybody. ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/168 "2011-10-05T17:49:20Z")
You can’t be fucked by a glaringly correct call. On preview - Grumblegrumble…damn you, **garygnu** … ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/169 "2011-10-05T17:56:56Z")
“Glaringly correct”? I can see room for argument that the call was correct, but any claim that it was obviously correct is ludicrous. That’s especially true considering the five similar plays which were shown that night on _Football Night In America_, all of which were called the other way. ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/170 "2011-10-05T19:09:14Z")
Didn’t see that – happen to know of a link? Curious if they showed five glaringly _incorrect_ calls. All I know is he blatantly, obviously went to the ground on his own and give himself up. Even when watching it live at game speed, when the Cardinals went diving for the “loose ball” my immediate reaction was “Oh, stop pretending it was a fumble, the play was over”. I just don’t see any way anyone can seriously argue that was a fumble. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/171 "2011-10-06T02:02:31Z")
Unfortunately, my wife cleared it from the DVR, so I can’t even tell you which teams were involved, and NBC doesn’t seem to have any of the preshow online. He went to the ground. It’s not clear at all that he went down on purpose, and even if he did, he didn’t stay down long enough to establish that he’d given himself up. In any event, the zebras didn’t recognize that he had until after the fact, because the whistle didn’t blow. I think he assumed he had been touched after he went down, or was about to be touched, and was in such a hurry to get back to the huddle that he didn’t wait to get touched. Here, [watch the video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1tokHtcvZo): he hadn’t even stopped sliding along the turf when he started getting up. If he was trying to give himself up, he did a piss-poor job of it. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/172 "2011-10-06T02:03:29Z")
They were in a hurry-up situation, he was trying to get back to the huddle as quickly as possible. That context makes the call that was made more logical, not less. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/173 "2011-10-06T13:22:34Z")
> [@Hal\_Briston](#): > > Didn’t see that – happen to know of a link? Curious if they showed five glaringly _incorrect_ calls. > > All I know is he blatantly, obviously went to the ground on his own and give himself up. Even when watching it live at game speed, when the Cardinals went diving for the “loose ball” my immediate reaction was “Oh, stop pretending it was a fumble, the play was over”. > > I just don’t see any way anyone can seriously argue that was a fumble. As a **GIANTS** fan, I was worried that Cruz had just clutched defeat from the jaws of impending, hopeful victory…at live speed. Sure, Cruz thought he was down, but that isn’t his call. The call could’ve gone either way, and I would not have been surprised had it been ruled against **Big Blue**. If he’s trying to give himself up, he has to do a better job going forward…or play like a pro and get the extra 3 yards and take the hit (I feel he went down to avoid a potential fumble on a tackle, but he almost blew it anyway). ---
**Author:** ![soulmurk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@soulmurk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulmurk)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/174 "2011-10-06T19:11:49Z")
Hypothetical question: If the Eagles don’t start getting wins, does Andy Reid get fired during the season? ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/175 "2011-10-06T19:49:28Z")
Lord, I hope not… ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/176 "2011-10-06T20:04:00Z")
I think Andy Reid has earned the right to finish out the season before getting fired. ---
**Author:** ![Jules\_Andre](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jules_andre/32/9334_2.png) [@Jules\_Andre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jules_Andre)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/177 "2011-10-07T08:01:18Z")
He won’t get fired during the season. I’m not sure there is a record he could finish with and get fired after the season, either. But that’s just a guess. It just seems the only reason he’s taking any heat is because the media is turning it up, I don’t think it comes from within at all. The Eagles are going to start winning. They’ve had leads in every single game in the 4th quarter. There are lots of problems, tons of excuses, but the simple fact is that every single loss could very easily have been a win if they don’t melt down in the 4th. Even if the defense is just “bad” instead of an atrocious abomination, this team is probably 3-1. So for as bad as everything looks, they’ll turn it around. I just don’t know if they can make the playoffs anymore. Hell, everyone should have seen this coming anyway - no team faced as much turnover as the Eagles did, both in players and coaches, and with the lockout this was the worst possible year for it. Now Juan Castillo? He won’t make it to the Eagles’ bye if this team gives up another 4th quarter lead. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/178 "2011-10-07T16:11:52Z")
> [@soulmurk](#): > > Hypothetical question: If the Eagles don’t start getting wins, does Andy Reid get fired during the season? I can’t see it happening during the season, though if they’re 4-8, it may be “dead man walking” time. The Eagles take pride in being a well-run organization, and canning a coach midseason looks chaotic. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/179 "2011-10-09T20:32:45Z")
Skins move into sole first place without even stepping on the field. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382/180 "2011-10-11T05:04:57Z")
The Eagles really seem like the Cowboys last year. Coming off a good regular season, poor post season with lots of hype only to just not play well together. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfc-east-2011/592382.md?page=10)