# NFL 2023: Week 12 men who have walked on the moon
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-12-men-who-have-walked-on-the-moon/993536
**Category:** The Game Room
**Tags:** football-nfl
**Created:** [November 22, 2023, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-12-men-who-have-walked-on-the-moon/993536 "2023-11-22T15:47:37Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)
#### Post date: [November 24, 2023, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-12-men-who-have-walked-on-the-moon/993536/21 "2023-11-24T17:00:13Z")
> [@dalej42](#):
>
> I assume if they were going to make a mid season head coach decision, it would have been today as the Commanders have a very late bye this season.
That’s my assumption right now, too.
Here’s an opinion piece from the Washington Post (should be a gift link, so readable if you don’t have a subscription), which amounts to “Don’t do Eric Bienemy wrong by making him interim head coach for a terrible team.”
> **[Perspective | If the Commanders move on from Ron Rivera, spare Eric Bieniemy...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2023/11/23/eric-bieniemy-commanders-interim/?pwapi_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJyZWFzb24iOiJnaWZ0IiwibmJmIjoxNzAwNzE1NjAwLCJpc3MiOiJzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zIiwiZXhwIjoxNzAyMDk3OTk5LCJpYXQiOjE3MDA3MTU2MDAsImp0aSI6ImFlMjk1NjFhLTk0MzItNDE5Yi1hYzhlLTE3ZjYxMzg4YzYxYyIsInVybCI6Imh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lndhc2hpbmd0b25wb3N0LmNvbS9zcG9ydHMvMjAyMy8xMS8yMy9lcmljLWJpZW5pZW15LWNvbW1hbmRlcnMtaW50ZXJpbS8ifQ.qKgkZd-Zriod9ypK0Ta8SYcI-J3NPDfZbJ2ofNM0LNk&itid=gfta)**
>
> Although Bieniemy has long desired to run his own team, he shouldn’t be desperate enough to take on the unwinnable situation as the Commanders’ interim coach.
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### Author:  [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)
#### Post date: [November 24, 2023, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-12-men-who-have-walked-on-the-moon/993536/22 "2023-11-24T20:05:18Z")
> [@Railer13](#):
>
> I realize I’m picking a nit here, but ‘roughing the passer’ can only be called when the quarterback actually throws a pass.
>
> Now, could a personal foul have been called on that play? Certainly, and probably should have been called.
While you’re nitpicking, you’re not wrong. I had the wrong terminology. 🙂
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### Author:  [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)
#### Post date: [November 24, 2023, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-12-men-who-have-walked-on-the-moon/993536/23 "2023-11-24T20:14:58Z")
> [@Railer13](#):
>
> I realize I’m picking a nit here, but ‘roughing the passer’ can only be called when the quarterback actually throws a pass.
I don’t think this is correct. You don’t have to actually pass the ball to be the passer. Otherwise, many or most sacks would be listed as tackles for a loss.
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### Author:  [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)
#### Post date: [November 24, 2023, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-12-men-who-have-walked-on-the-moon/993536/24 "2023-11-24T20:19:53Z")
Eh, the team itself looks pretty good so far. Just a few mistakes and things to clean up, and some holes to patch. I wouldn’t put money on them to go to the Super Bowl, but that’s a stretch goal for any team that hasn’t been coached by Andy Reid in living memory. There’s a solid group of players, and Campbell’s a pretty good coach, if he can stop with the dumb decisions (there’s no way a fake punt on 4th and 5 from your own 23 near the end of the third is a good decision). I’d say the Lions are on a real upswing that could last several years and contain real success.
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### Author:  [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)
#### Post date: [November 24, 2023, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-12-men-who-have-walked-on-the-moon/993536/25 "2023-11-24T21:07:47Z")
Thanks, I appreciate the words of encouragement. It ain’t easy being a Lions fan. And despite yesterday’s loss, the Lions _ **are** _ still on top of the NFC North (for now, at least).
But yeah, that fake punt deep in their own territory…
🤦♂️
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### Author:  [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)
#### Post date: [November 24, 2023, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-12-men-who-have-walked-on-the-moon/993536/26 "2023-11-24T22:39:30Z")
Jets setting new marks in sucktitude. It’s a three-fer:
Early in the game, a stat said that the Jets are 23% on third down, which is the lowest in the NFL in 50 seasons.
At the end of the half the Jets intercept Tua somewhere around midfield with nine seconds to go. Naturally, they try a Hail Mary into the end zone. The Dolphins intercepted in the end zone, returning it a hundred yards for a pick six with no time left on the clock.
At the end of the 3rd or start of the 4th, there was some scrapping after the whistle on an extra point. The Jets got two penalties: personal foul, and then personal foul against a ref because 72 accidentally punched a ref in the mouth. Not only is that an obvious ejection, but because one of those penalties was against a ref, both penalties _stacked._ I was unaware that penalties could stack.
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### Author:  [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)
#### Post date: [November 24, 2023, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-12-men-who-have-walked-on-the-moon/993536/27 "2023-11-24T22:58:20Z")
I’m watching the Jets Dolphins debacle now. The Jets finally scored a touchdown. I don’t know if Amazon minimizes the crowd noise or if the people on the stands just don’t care, but there wasn’t much reaction
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### Author:  [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2023, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-12-men-who-have-walked-on-the-moon/993536/28 "2023-11-25T00:00:04Z")
> [@EllisDee](#):
>
> I don’t think this is correct. You don’t have to actually pass the ball to be the passer
It’s a yes and no thing. Here are the rules.
> **[Roughing the Passer | NFL Football Operations](https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/roughing-the-passer/)**
> Any physical acts against a player who is in a passing posture (i.e. before, during, or after a pass) which, in the Referee’s judgment, are unwarranted by the circumstances of the play will be called as fouls.
In Geno’s case he was sacked as he was running around trying to find a guy to pass to. I’m not sure if that counts as being “in a passing posture” or not. You’re right that a pass doesn’t have to actually occur, but the rules seem to indicate that the QB must at least be trying to pass as he’s hit, and scrambling around while going through progressions probably doesn’t count.
Though as the rule says,
> In covering the passer position, Referees will be particularly alert to fouls in which defenders impermissibly use the helmet and/or facemask to hit the passer, or use hands, arms, or other parts of the body to hit the passer forcibly in the head or neck area ( **see also the other unnecessary roughness rules covering these subjects** ).
Bolding mine. Ripping off a guy’s helmet as you tackle him seems like a clear example of unnecessary roughness. When it’s a QB in the midst of a sack it seems especially egregious. Not sure how you can miss that.
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### Author:  [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2023, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-12-men-who-have-walked-on-the-moon/993536/29 "2023-11-25T00:26:43Z")
Did he rip it off or did it pop off? The latter is technically possible, and would not be a penalty. Like, for example, if you slammed into his shoulder pad, and his shoulder pad then shoots up and pops his helmet off.
“Trying to pass” just means “not obviously running.” Like one of those RPOs where the quarterback keeps it and runs, or a quarterback draw, or a QB sneak, those plays won’t draw any passer penalties because there is no passer. In those circumstances, he’s a runner. Any time he drops back to pass he’s a passer, at least until he pulls the ball down and runs forward. Possibly he has to cross the line of scrimmage in order to become a runner and lose the passer designation. That part I’m unsure of. But if he’s back there looking downfield and looks like he wants to pass, he’s a passer.
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### Author:  [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2023, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-12-men-who-have-walked-on-the-moon/993536/30 "2023-11-25T00:32:59Z")
> [@EllisDee](#):
>
> Did he rip it off or did it pop off? The latter is technically possible, and would not be a penalty. Like, for example, if you slammed into his shoulder pad, and his shoulder pad then shoots up and pops his helmet off.
His hand gripped the bottom of the helmet behind the QBs neck. That’s what I remember anyway.
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### Author:  [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2023, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-12-men-who-have-walked-on-the-moon/993536/31 "2023-11-25T01:15:23Z")
Eh, I wouldn’t argue with it being called as unnecessary roughness, but it didn’t look like the player intentionally tried to remove Smith’s helmet. Definitely lucky that he didn’t get seriously injured afterwards, however.
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### Author:  [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2023, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-12-men-who-have-walked-on-the-moon/993536/32 "2023-11-25T01:20:48Z")
Dolphins LB Jaelan Phillips suffered a non-contact injury to his right Achilles tendon late in today’s game.
Small sample size and all that, so it’s probably just an unfortunate coincidence, but it’s the same turf where Aaron Rodgers tore his Achilles in Week 1. MetLife Stadium got a new artificial surface for this season, though a number of players have continued to be unhappy with it.
> **[Dolphins LB Phillips suffers right Achilles injury](https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/38971631/dolphins-lb-jaelan-phillips-suffers-achilles-injury-vs-jets)**
>
> Dolphins linebacker Jaelan Phillips suffered a right Achilles injury late in Friday's 34-13 win over the Jets, casting a shadow over Miami's dominating victory.
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### Author:  [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2023, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-12-men-who-have-walked-on-the-moon/993536/33 "2023-11-25T01:23:58Z")
Isn’t pulling on the helmet some kind of “strict liability” offense?
Disclaimer: I know Jack about football rules.
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### Author:  [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2023, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-12-men-who-have-walked-on-the-moon/993536/34 "2023-11-25T01:26:59Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#):
>
> Isn’t pulling on the helmet some kind of “strict liability” offense?
In the NFL, a hand on the opponent’s facemask, even for just a moment, usually leads to a 15-yard penalty, as does grabbing the back collar or back of the shoulderpads (typically called a “horse collar” tackle). I’m not sure about grabbing the helmet itself.
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### Author:  [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2023, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-12-men-who-have-walked-on-the-moon/993536/35 "2023-11-25T01:33:50Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#):
>
> Eh, I wouldn’t argue with it being called as unnecessary roughness, but it didn’t look like the player intentionally tried to remove Smith’s helmet.
Intent isn’t a factor for the penalty. It’s a safety issue. If it happens by accident due to carelessness or clumsiness it’s going to be called every time you see it.
Literally if you bump a QB’s helmet enough to move their head, by accident, you’re going to get a flag. Defenders have to be extremely careful how they handle a QB above the neck.
Actually pulling on a helmet enough to pull it off, whether intentional or not, goes far beyond what is normally flagged. And it certainly didn’t just pop off, it was yanked off. I 100% believe the defender wasn’t trying to hurt Geno and didn’t mean to do it, but when it comes to a penalty that doesn’t matter. (It might matter if the league was looking at discipline outside of the game like a fine or suspension, but again I don’t think it came close to warranting anything like that.)
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### Author:  [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2023, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-12-men-who-have-walked-on-the-moon/993536/36 "2023-11-25T01:38:18Z")
> [@Atamasama](#):
>
> Intent isn’t a factor for the penalty. It’s a safety issue. If it happens by accident due to carelessness or clumsiness it’s going to be called every time you see it.
This. Defenders are often just grabbing at the ballcarrier, and sometimes they (completely unintentionally) get a handful of facemask, or back of the neck of the jersey, or helmet, and commit a penalty in the process.
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### Author:  [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2023, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-12-men-who-have-walked-on-the-moon/993536/37 "2023-11-25T01:40:47Z")
I groan about it too. Like, come on, that doesn’t look like a big deal, but that’s the rule,
That’s why I was stunned about the game yesterday and the lack of flags. Sheesh.
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### Author:  [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2023, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-12-men-who-have-walked-on-the-moon/993536/38 "2023-11-25T02:39:23Z")
The Tim Boyle era had a predictable beginning. I will never understand benching a QB for someone who is obviously not any better. If you have a viable candidate on the bench sure. If you have Tim Boyle why bother? He’s not the QB of the future.
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### Author:  [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2023, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-12-men-who-have-walked-on-the-moon/993536/39 "2023-11-25T02:44:47Z")
> [@Loach](#):
>
> I will never understand benching a QB for someone who is obviously not any better.
I think part of it is hoping that a change will provide some sort of spark to the team, and maybe an unrealistic hope that it turns out the other guy is actually better than you thought (see: Brock Purdy).
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### Author:  [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2023, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-12-men-who-have-walked-on-the-moon/993536/40 "2023-11-25T03:06:50Z")
> [@EllisDee](#):
>
> I don’t think this is correct. You don’t have to actually pass the ball to be the passer. Otherwise, many or most sacks would be listed as tackles for a loss.
Sacks are a statistic, penalties are not. Official scorers are allowed to assume things – though not quite as much as those in baseball.
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