# NFL 2023: Week 17 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** football-nfl\ **Created:** [December 27, 2023, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-17/995234 "2023-12-27T15:23:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2024, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-17/995234/141 "2024-01-01T18:27:59Z")
Exactly! He was an 80s icon. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2024, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-17/995234/142 "2024-01-01T18:35:39Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > But the Bears (fans) are wonders of taunting. For example, I clearly heard chants of “Green Bay sucks! Green Bay sucks!” yesterday at Soldier Field while the Bears were hosting the Atlanta Falcons! At least they had the right sport. I think people used to chant “Yankees suck” at Boston Celtics games. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2024, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-17/995234/143 "2024-01-01T19:12:59Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I think people used to chant “Yankees suck” at Boston Celtics games. Hey now, just because it’s a basketball game that doesn’t make it less true. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2024, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-17/995234/144 "2024-01-01T23:05:33Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > They’ve spent the #2 draft pick on Mitch Trubisky. And Chiefs fans are eternally grateful, as KC chose Patrick Mahomes with the #10 pick that year. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-17/995234/145 "2024-01-02T15:16:10Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I think things are shaping up for a big showdown between the ratbirds and the Browns. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > I think the Browns are locked into the 5 seed. Correct on both counts. Cleveland will open the playoffs on the road in Jacksonville, Indianapolis, or Houston, against whichever team wins the AFC South. If they win, they will then travel to Baltimore. ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-17/995234/146 "2024-01-02T15:51:02Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > I think it’s time the league just did away with the requirement to report as eligible. They are expanding what numbers people can wear and I think it’s perfectly reasonable to ask the defense to infer who is eligible based on alignment. The whole thing feels like an anachronism. I would imagine the argument against that is a coach will come up with a play that has a player who looks like an interior lineman actually be eligible. Patriots did something like this a few years ago when they’d have an RB at the end be ineligible in order to have a lineman eligible, which was clever, imo. And of course, the answer to that is for the defense to pay attention and cover the guy who doesn’t look like he should be the receiver. Back to Decker reporting. I know there is a signal that players give to the refs when they’re reporting, sort of a wiping of the front of the jersey motion, Lions didn’t do that. The ref messed up for sure, and it even adds to it when the Lions gave the refs a heads up on the play before the game. I think the motion isn’t needed on 4th down plays but I don’t know about PATs. And more than one player can report eligible for a play. The Bears ran a play in 2018 where everyone except the [QB was a lineman](https://youtu.be/255KLjDH8ZQ?si=LFRAe-2taliMsILH). ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-17/995234/147 "2024-01-02T16:36:43Z")
> [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#): > > I know there is a signal that players give to the refs when they’re reporting, sort of a wiping of the front of the jersey motion… Is that true? That’s the signal the ref gives, but is it a requirement that the players do it? I can see players doing it as an easy way to communicate to the refs, but as far as I know, players can also just tell the ref “I’m eligible.” ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-17/995234/148 "2024-01-02T16:44:57Z")
I do wonder if the trouble is so great that it’s not worth the hassle. Perhaps the rule should be changed that offensive linemen are simply ineligible to catch forward passes in all situations, period. None of this declaring/not-declaring stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-17/995234/149 "2024-01-02T16:51:28Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Is that true? That’s the signal the ref gives, but is it a requirement that the players do it? Mike Florio wrote this article talking about this controversy: > **[NFL has no plan to change procedure for reporting as eligible](https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/nfl-has-no-plan-to-change-procedure-for-reporting-as-eligible)** > > With the Eagles losing to the Cardinals on Sunday, Saturday night's outcome in the Detroit-Dallas game becomes even more significant. First of all, it has a spin that I hadn’t heard before. That supposedly the Lions were trying to be sneaky and not let the Cowboys know who was reporting as eligible. Which makes zero sense and sounds like one of those “hot take” BS things that writers and sports analysts say to stir up controversy and get attention. The ref will announce who is eligible so how is that supposed to work? Unless they didn’t want Dallas to know until the last moment. Anyway, that seems like it’s just a “juicy rumor” and it doesn’t fit with the reports that the NFL is disciplining the officiating crew responsible. But he did say this bit: > Part of the problem is that the Lions relied on verbally communicating the eligible/ineligible information to Allen without using the clear, inconspicuous non-verbal signal of the eligible player running his hands over the front of his jersey. Regardless of whether or not you believe the theory that this was deception that backfired, it’s clear that giving a nonverbal signal isn’t required, but it’s common to avoid confusion in a noisy stadium. And Decker didn’t do it. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-17/995234/150 "2024-01-02T18:20:45Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > First of all, it has a spin that I hadn’t heard before. That supposedly the Lions were trying to be sneaky and not let the Cowboys know who was reporting as eligible. Which makes zero sense and sounds like one of those “hot take” BS things that writers and sports analysts say to stir up controversy and get attention. According to The Athletic/NY Times, [this is exactly what happened, and Campbell admitted it](https://theathletic.com/5173539/2024/01/02/reporting-eligible-lions-controversy/). That article may be paywalled, but I can’t provide a gift link, sadly. Here are some relevant quotes: > [snip] … there was no reason to be coy or sneaky about reporting as eligible, in the way that the Lions offensive linemen did Saturday night. Lions left tackle [Taylor Decker](https://theathletic.com/nfl/player/taylor-decker-QjSSDzO5BOZR3y9R/) said he reported as eligible postgame, as did coach Dan Campbell, but Decker approached the referee with right tackle [Penei Sewell](https://theathletic.com/nfl/player/penei-sewell-zAfHt0PbSH59H9yP/) at his side, at the same time as the team’s sixth offensive lineman [Dan Skipper](https://theathletic.com/nfl/player/dan-skipper-O45aSUE09WkkFZdH/) ran on from the sideline to sub into the play, which he’d already done once before in that game. > > Even though the referee has to tell the defense which offensive player is reporting as eligible before the snap, there can be an advantage to sending more than one player toward the referee to make the process a little murkier for the defense to interpret. The in-stadium announcements are hard to hear, and often players and coaches aren’t paying close attention to it. > The Lions intended to exploit that pattern for the two-point conversion. And it worked too well, because when Allen saw Skipper run on the field, he perhaps thought Skipper reported, despite Decker (and Sewell) standing right in front of him. > Two sources said it’s very rare for more than one offensive lineman to approach the referee in a reporting circumstance, and they’d never seen such an obvious attempt to deceive a defense. “To send three players over on purpose to (Allen), you get what you ask for,” said one club staffer in a text. “They tried to confuse their opponent here and they confused the official.” And here’s the money quote confirming they attempted trickery: > Campbell was asked Monday if sending three offensive linemen in the referee’s direction was subterfuge. He admitted it was. > > “It’s for the defense, so they see three different people,” Campbell said. “You’re just hoping they happen to not hear (the announcement).” ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-17/995234/151 "2024-01-02T18:25:55Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > Campbell was asked Monday if sending three offensive linemen in the referee’s direction was subterfuge. He admitted it was. Damn, really? In that case, while I still have little love for the officials in that case, I have no sympathy for the Lions. Maybe they won’t pull that again. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-17/995234/152 "2024-01-02T18:29:42Z")
Right? How could an official possibly keep a two-digit number in his head, especially with two OTHER two-digit numbers in the same general vicinity? The ref said the lineman that wasn’t even actually there is the one that reported. No shenanigans require defense when the mistake-making party is a moron. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-17/995234/153 "2024-01-02T18:39:52Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > In that case, while I still have little love for the officials in that case, I have no sympathy for the Lions. Maybe they won’t pull that again. The Lions tried to fool the defense, which is what every offense does on every single play. There was not an attempt to fool the official; it’s just that the official was a complete moron who screwed up. The Lions shouldn’t be criticized for that. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-17/995234/154 "2024-01-02T19:11:57Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > There was not an attempt to fool the official; it’s just that the official was a complete moron who screwed up. The Lions shouldn’t be criticized for that. I disagree. If you get cute trying to “wink wink, nudge nudge” the official, don’t get mad when it doesn’t work. I absolutely criticize them for it. I still think the official fucked up, and deserves criticism, but it seems to be a bit of a self-inflicted problem as well. The _Athletic_ article that @ShadowFacts cited agrees with me. The clandestine reporting was a blunder and it cost them. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-17/995234/155 "2024-01-02T19:26:50Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > There was not an attempt to fool the official; it’s just that the official was a complete moron who screwed up. Yes, this appears to be the case. > [@TroutMan](#): > > The Lions tried to fool the defense, which is what every offense does on every single play. This is also true. Their strategy for that trickery, however, involved confusion about who was an eligible receiver. I think it’s safe to say that if the lineman had just done the usual clear reporting procedure, there would not have been a flag. However, said lineman would also not likely have been wide open, because defenses are generally not stupid. They decided to be cute and fuck around with the standard procedure, and it bit them in the shape of an inattentive official. Live by the sword, die by the sword. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-17/995234/156 "2024-01-02T19:44:36Z")
Could the rules be changed to allow this position to be “eligible” on every play without screwing up the game? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-17/995234/157 "2024-01-02T19:45:31Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > This is also true. Their strategy for that trickery, however, involved confusion about who was an eligible receiver. I think it’s safe to say that if the lineman had just done the usual clear reporting procedure, there would not have been a flag. However, said lineman would also not likely have been wide open, because defenses are generally not stupid. They decided to be cute and fuck around with the standard procedure, and it bit them in the shape of an inattentive official. Yeah, true. It’s like most plays in the NFL. If they work you’re a genius, if they don’t you’re an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-17/995234/158 "2024-01-02T19:50:37Z")
Except multiple players can report as eligible. So the only excuse is that the official didn’t think Decker reported as eligible, even though literally everyone else said differently. I know I’m not going to believe the ref that believes [this](https://twitter.com/espn/status/1731529135078384057) is a late hit out of bounds over everyone else. It’s not the Lions fault Brad Allen struggles to read numbers and repeat them. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-17/995234/159 "2024-01-02T20:15:00Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Could the rules be changed to allow this position to be “eligible” on every play without screwing up the game? Every change has it’s advantages and disadvantages. In this case, the defense would have to prepare for any lineman to step back from the Line of Scrimmage and become eligable. This would give the offense a pretty big advantage, since the defense has to cover way more people than right now, just in case they become receivers. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-17/995234/160 "2024-01-02T20:48:28Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > Correct on both counts. Cleveland will open the playoffs on the road in Jacksonville, Indianapolis, or Houston, against whichever team wins the AFC South. If they win, they will then travel to Baltimore. Wouldn’t it depend on who else won? If the 6th or 7th wildcard seed wins, wouldn’t Baltimore get them? (first seed vs last) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-17/995234.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-17/995234.md?page=9)