# NFL 2023: Week 18, the Final Chapter **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** football-nfl\ **Created:** [January 3, 2024, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-18-the-final-chapter/995563 "2024-01-03T21:42:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2024, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-18-the-final-chapter/995563/121 "2024-01-08T19:16:48Z")
> [@borschevsky](#): > > If I’m understanding correctly, had there been no penalty, Buffalo would have snapped 1st-and-10 from their 49 with about 2:25 remaining. Instead, the penalty stops the clock, so they snapped 1st-and-10 from the Miami 46 with 3:04 remaining. That seems like the penalty against Miami benefits Miami, because the time is worth more than the yards in that situation. Huh. I had no idea that a defensive holding penalty could be enforced after the gain on the play. I’ve seen roughing-the-passer enforced after the gain, but never a defensive holding. But assume that Allen does not get the first down on his 3rd down scramble. If there’s no penalty, it’s 4th down and the Bills are presumably punting. But if there’s a penalty, it’s an automatic first down and they retain possession. So even if the clock stops on the flag, Buffalo still benefits greatly by keeping the ball for at least four more downs. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2024, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-18-the-final-chapter/995563/122 "2024-01-08T19:17:04Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Eh, I’m a fan of cheapness and pettiness in sports (up to a certain extent). Fake kneel-downs and touchdown passes are just the thing. Makes it more entertaining. What about cheapness in sports appeals to you? ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2024, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-18-the-final-chapter/995563/123 "2024-01-08T19:17:18Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Like if you get beat and the receiver looks like they’re getting a TD with a reception, you blatantly interfere and draw a flag. See [Marcus Peters ripping Christian Watson down with a horse-collar tackle.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I6gz6HbS7Y) ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2024, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-18-the-final-chapter/995563/124 "2024-01-08T19:45:54Z")
This isn’t playoff-related but ol’ Aaron Rodgers is assholin’ it up again. Making a “joke” about Jimmy Kimmel being one of the Epstein names. > **[ESPN calls Aaron Rodgers' Jimmy Kimmel comments 'dumb and factually...](https://sports.yahoo.com/espn-calls-aaron-rodgers-jimmy-kimmel-comments-dumb-and-factually-inaccurate-will-continue-his-appearances-000302934.html)** > > Kimmel threatened the Jets QB with legal action over a comment implying he was on the Jeffrey Epstein list. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2024, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-18-the-final-chapter/995563/125 "2024-01-08T19:55:06Z")
Qaaron Rodgers is speed-running “massive societal dislike” after finding out Favre took over a decade after retirement to be an absolute piece of shit. While also complaining about the consequences of his actions as “cancel culture”. So glad that drama llama went to New York. Even gladder that he’s been pulling his “give my buddies money, too”. My only question is whether Bakhtiari goes to the Jets after his almost-certain cut after the season. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2024, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-18-the-final-chapter/995563/126 "2024-01-08T20:52:55Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > I had no idea that a defensive holding penalty could be enforced after the gain on the play. So can offensive holding. Typically offensive holding is a 10 yard loss, but that’s only if it happens at or behind the line of scrimmage. If you get called for holding on a running play, and the holding took place 16 yards down the field (and the run got at least that far), the holding applies from that spot. So that would go from 1st and 10 to 2nd and 4, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2024, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-18-the-final-chapter/995563/127 "2024-01-08T21:17:37Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > So can offensive holding. Yes, that happens frequently. But I am having a hard time remembering a play in which defensive holding was enforced after the gain. Often, defensive holding occurs on a play in which a pass is completed downfield. The offense then declines the penalty in lieu of the gain on the play. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2024, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-18-the-final-chapter/995563/128 "2024-01-08T21:33:40Z")
I think there’s a distinction between defensive holding that occurs while trying to impede a receiver running a route versus a defensive holding trying to impede a potential blocker from getting downfield. One of the more common “added after the play” situations is a DL grabbing and impeding a pulling lineman. Not called often but we’ve definitely seen it applied. I don’t know the precise mechanics for the two calls. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2024, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-18-the-final-chapter/995563/129 "2024-01-08T22:07:30Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > But I am having a hard time remembering a play in which defensive holding was enforced after the gain. Often, defensive holding occurs on a play in which a pass is completed downfield. The offense then declines the penalty in lieu of the gain on the play. The distinction is between whether the foul was on a running play (in which case the spot of enforcement is the dead ball spot after the play) or a passing play (in which the spot of enforcement is the previous spot). If there was a defensive holding after a completed pass, while the receiver was running (hard to imagine… but perhaps a defender tackled an offensive player for some reason) that would be enforced from the dead-ball spot as well. Any defensive penalty committed before the ball is thrown on a passing play is enforced from the previous spot, if accepted. Illegal hands to the face being another example. If the pass is completed the penalty is usually declined. You can see tons of gory “spot of enforcement” details here (Section 3): [NFL Rulebook | NFL Football Operations](https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-rulebook/#rule-14-penalty-enforcement-governing-all-cases-not-otherwise-specifically-provided-for) ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2024, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-18-the-final-chapter/995563/130 "2024-01-08T22:10:42Z")
I am simultaneously pissed that refs screw up calls every game, and amazed that they remember all the weird rules like that one and enforce them in real time. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2024, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-18-the-final-chapter/995563/131 "2024-01-08T22:45:50Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > If the pass is completed the penalty is usually declined. I’d amend that to “if the pass is completed _for a first down_ the penalty is usually declined.”, since defensive holding and hands to the face both give a first down. 2nd or 3rd and 1 is still less valuable than 1st and 10 even from a few yards further back. ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2024, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-18-the-final-chapter/995563/132 "2024-01-08T22:55:10Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Sometimes penalties are worth it. Like if you get beat and the receiver looks like they’re getting a TD with a reception, you blatantly interfere and draw a flag. Yeah, absolutely. It just seems like a loophole that I hadn’t considered before. Late in the game, when the offense is trying to bleed the clock to protect a lead, if they’re running for a clear first down then the defense should commit a hold to stop the clock. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2024, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-18-the-final-chapter/995563/133 "2024-01-08T23:22:49Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > I’d amend that to “if the pass is completed _for a first down_ the penalty is usually declined.”, since defensive holding and hands to the face both give a first down. Yes, absolutely right. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2024, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-18-the-final-chapter/995563/134 "2024-01-09T00:49:05Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > The distinction is between whether the foul was on a running play (in which case the spot of enforcement is the dead ball spot after the play) or a passing play (in which the spot of enforcement is the previous spot). That’s kinda what I was thinking. Thanks for the clarification. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2024, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-18-the-final-chapter/995563/135 "2024-01-09T00:56:19Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I haven’t been watching Packers games. Does his offensive line suck? I thought they were good. Early in the year, the OL was an area of concern (or, at least, fan angst): it had been hoped that David Bakhtiari might finally be back to form, after an ACL injury at the end of 2020, but he didn’t play after opening weekend (and is probably done); their other former Pro Bowl lineman, Elgton Jenkins, missed a couple of games in September, as well. But, Zach Tom turned out to be pretty good, and the line, generally, seemed to have been at least average, if not a bit above average. The running game wasn’t great (though that was at least in part due to Aaron Jones missing six games), but the line only gave up 30 sacks (third-fewest in the league). ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2024, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-18-the-final-chapter/995563/136 "2024-01-09T03:48:33Z")
Remember how David Carr got ruined by being sacked into oblivion in Houston? In is rookie year he was sacked 76 times. The 2023 Giants saw that and said “hold my beer,” allowing a staggering 85 sacks this season. Second most in NFL history. (83 sacks if you ignore the 17th game to make it an even comparison.) I’m reasonably confident that the Giants can take the record in 2024. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2024, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-18-the-final-chapter/995563/137 "2024-01-09T03:54:22Z")
Sam Howell was on track to shatter the record but the Commies managed to clean up their protection enough that didn’t happen. Looking like he’s probably riding the bench behind a #2 overall pick or getting traded. Either way his starting days in Washington are probably over. He showed enough I’d still trust him in a backup role if they can’t get any trade value out of him. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-2023-week-18-the-final-chapter/995563/138 "2024-01-10T02:47:36Z")
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