# NFL casts down the Saints **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 21, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-casts-down-the-saints/616427 "2012-03-21T17:24:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-casts-down-the-saints/616427/81 "2012-03-22T18:20:44Z")
I thought the penalty for Peyton was harsh too, but hearing about everything, I think the year can be broken down as: 4 games for the bounty system 6 games for lying to the league 6 games for continuing (or at least lack of control/oversight) the bounties once the investigation had been started. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-casts-down-the-saints/616427/82 "2012-03-22T18:26:12Z")
Small point of order, as it’s come up quite a few times in this thread: **Payton** is the currently-suspended head coach of the New Orleans Saints. **Peyton** is the recently-acquired quarterback of the Denver Broncos. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-casts-down-the-saints/616427/83 "2012-03-22T18:34:53Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Right. A guy who was actually there, and actually plays football, is a dupe Responding again to point out that I called him a dupe _in context of an answer to your hypothetical_. Assuming Bowen was being truthful, his answer indicates he doesn’t understand what the issue is or how management works. The issue is not that Gregg Williams explicitly told his defense to hurt people by playing dirty. I have heard absolutely no one describe the situation that way. What he did do is give his players rewards for hurting people irrespective of how they accomplished that job. No distinction was made, and that is in itself an encouragement to play dirty (especially since it also counteracts the NFL fines, at least in part). And in case you have not seen this point in the context of political or criminal discussions, I’ll raise it here: if you are in a leadership position and handle your subordinates in the right way, you do not have to tell them to break the rules to please you. You give them a task and let them figure it out. That gives you plausible deniability if you ever get caught. ‘Sure, those guys working for me broke into a bank when I said I was desperate for money, but I never told them to do it - I just said I needed money! I had no _idea_ they might steal it.’ It can be pretty effective as a defense. So if Bowen does not understand that, then yes, he’s kind of clueless or just hasn’t thought about how this stuff works. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-casts-down-the-saints/616427/84 "2012-03-22T18:49:59Z")
Will no one rid me of this turbulent quarterback? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-casts-down-the-saints/616427/85 "2012-03-22T22:41:13Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I understand it perfectly. Do you actually not grasp that I was talking about a problem with _your_ argument? You said “players want to hurt each other,” and I pointed out that when guys hurt each other with cheap shots, the players don’t like that at all. The problem is that you were not addressing the substance of my argument, you were just being willfully obtuse in a pathetic attempt to score points. I said players want to hurt their opponents because several of them have explicitly said those things. That is not an argument as it is relaying things that were actually said by several players. If you think I was saying that they want to hurt people without any regard to context, play, or fairness, then maybe you need to get checked out. > [@Marley23](#): > > I already explained this: the bounty program made no distinctions between legal and illegal play. You don’t know that. It’s very possible they did given what several players who were there have relayed about Williams as a person and a coach. > [@Marley23](#): > > You got money if you knocked a player out on a completely legal hit, and you got money if you knocked him out but got flagged for a personal foul. The two actions were rewarded the same way, which means it’s an encouragement to get the job done by any means necessary. Cite? And regardless, a flag doesn’t necessarily indicate a dirty play, which is what are talking about. > [@Enderw24](#): > > You’ve said this several times and I feel like we’re talking past one another here. Yes. Players get paid to play. Yes, that’s an incentive for them to win. Saints players (in particular but probably not exclusively), were paid to hurt other players. It was an incentive for them to hurt other players. A player can attempt to both be good at the game AND hurt another player. These two areas are not mutually exclusive. But they were not asked to actively hurt other players. Regardless of how you want to interpret things, players who were there, who participated in the bounty program, did not see it that way. They specifically said, Williams did ask or encourage us to hurt players. Now who do you think is in a better position to judge, a guy who is there or some dude on the internet who read an article? > [@Enderw24](#): > > Under whatever rule. Any rule they could find to use they’d have used. If money weren’t at issue they’d have found some other rule to go after the Saints because it’s about limited the NFL’s legal liability. If that were the case, they would have used “whatever rule” instead of the one they cited. So if you think they could have just made a big deal out of it of the moral repugnance of the program, why did they punish them for completely different reasons. > [@Enderw24](#): > > This isn’t about the NFL protecting players. This is about the NFL protecting its own ass and to that end, they’ll throw whatever rule they have to at the Saints to show they’re serious about this issue because if they don’t it will be used against them in lots of lawsuits currently pending. Exactly, which is why it annoys me to no end to see Goodell on TV acting as though he actually cares about player safety. > [@Enderw24](#): > > Harder? Probably. But the beer tastes sweeter knowing you won it. It’s _possibly_ a bad example because winning the beer frame is part of your overall goal: winning the whole game. It’s just a subsection of it. It’s a decent example because of that. I don’t know why you would try any harder during that frame than any other, but I don’t think the average person would. Particularly if a less than stellar frame at any point meant your game could be cancelled immediately. > [@Enderw24](#): > > Just like the injury incentive. You’d be a fool to not try your hardest to win the game. But, if it costs you nothing to also try to hurt another player to get that bounty, hey, go ahead and do it! But it would cost you a lot to try to deliberately injure anyone in an obvious way. Any guy with a chance to hurt the QB is in the game enough that an lineman would have ample opportunity to return the favor. So you are putting yourself at risk as well. That’s not to mention the reputation cost that comes with being known as a dirty player. Lastly, you would get fined far more than you would ever collect as a bounty. Guys like James Harrison are fined and suspended, which results in a huge lose of money. Thinking a small bounty is gonna change behavior doesn’t make any sense given all the other disincentives for doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-casts-down-the-saints/616427/86 "2012-03-22T23:00:33Z")
Are these folks who got suspended still being paid while on suspension? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-casts-down-the-saints/616427/87 "2012-03-22T23:02:42Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Responding again to point out that I called him a dupe _in context of an answer to your hypothetical_. Assuming Bowen was being truthful, his answer indicates he doesn’t understand what the issue is or how management works. Unlike you, the professional management consultant to the NFL? :dubious: Seriously, how arrogant can you be that you think that based solely on reading articles, often written based on other articles, you think you are in a better positions to judge the effects of a clandestine program better than multiple people who either play in the NFL, or were actually there. Oh, that’s right, I forgot you have some magical insight that can only be gleaned from watching ESPN from your couch while eating donuts. Multiple people who were actually there just “don’t understand the issue or how management works”. All these players, who overwhelmingly disagree with your stance just don’t understand. Even thought they are the only ones who are directly affected by such things, they don’t GET IT like you do, the armchair QB who consistently demonstrates an profound ignorance on all things sports related. But you must be right, I mean you did probably read like half a dozen articles about it. > [@Marley23](#): > > The issue is not that Gregg Williams explicitly told his defense to hurt people by playing dirty. I have heard absolutely no one describe the situation that way. What he did do is give his players rewards for hurting people irrespective of how they accomplished that job. First, you don’t know that it was irrespective of how they accomplished the job. Commonsense would lead one to believe there had to be some boundaries. Do you really think a guy who ran across the field, and punched Farve in the face would be rewarded? Even if you assume it was a wink-wink, nod-nod situation despite the several first hand accounts to the contrary, you then have to further assume that the money or rewards involved were significant enough to actually induce such behavior. Again, basic commonsense would lead most to believe that would not be the case. It also seems that in-depth analysis of the record seems to point to the fact that there were little deviation in the frequency of penalties and dirty plays. > [@Marley23](#): > > And in case you have not seen this point in the context of political or criminal discussions, I’ll raise it here: if you are in a leadership position and handle your subordinates in the right way, you do not have to tell them to break the rules to please you. You give them a task and let them figure it out. That gives you plausible deniability if you ever get caught. That only works if the “crime” is what you are trying to deny knowledge of. Targeting players is not against the rules. Telling a guy to hurt another guy is not against the rules. Saying you want to hurt your opponents is not against the rules. If it were, damn near every pass rusher would be suspended. Paying people non-contract bonuses is against the rules. So if there was any attempt to have plausible deniability, the smart way would have been to cover the money trail, not to avoid talk of injury. But thanks for the management 101 lesson. Let’s hope you never have to follow your own advice as you will likely make your situation worse. > [@Marley23](#): > > It can be pretty effective as a defense. So if Bowen does not understand that, then yes, he’s kind of clueless or just hasn’t thought about how this stuff works. Yeah, Bowen doesn’t get it. Maybe someone like you should explain to him, and the overwhelming majority of other NFL players who are indifferent to the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-casts-down-the-saints/616427/88 "2012-03-22T23:09:33Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Are these folks who got suspended still being paid while on suspension? No. The suspension will cost Payton around $7 million. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-casts-down-the-saints/616427/89 "2012-03-22T23:10:45Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > But it would cost you a lot to try to deliberately injure anyone in an obvious way. Any guy with a chance to hurt the QB is in the game enough that an lineman would have ample opportunity to return the favor. So you are putting yourself at risk as well. That’s not to mention the reputation cost that comes with being known as a dirty player. Lastly, you would get fined far more than you would ever collect as a bounty. Guys like James Harrison are fined and suspended, which results in a huge lose of money. Thinking a small bounty is gonna change behavior doesn’t make any sense given all the other disincentives for doing so. So, no one ever steals $100 bill from a another persons wallet because the fines for getting caught (if they did) would be several hundred to several thousand dollars? Again, why offer the bounty if it wasn’t necessary to change on-field behavior? [QUOTE=brickbacon] The problem is that you were not addressing the substance of my argument, you were just being willfully obtuse in a pathetic attempt to score points. [/QUOTE] Certainly I’m no moderator, but if I’m expected to follow the rules, I demand the same of others. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-casts-down-the-saints/616427/90 "2012-03-22T23:11:23Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Are these folks who got suspended still being paid while on suspension? I don’t think the coaches will be paid, but their contracts will be extended an extra year. So Payton, who I believe has 3 years left on his contract, will still have 3 years left next year when/if he comes back. For him, the lost in [salary](http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/saints/story/2012-03-21/bounty-program-unprecendented-punishment/53696548/1) is ~7.5 MM. Also though it was worth mentioning what Farve, the alleged target of a bounty said about all of this: > [@](#): > > Favre, who suffered numerous injuries in the Vikings’ NFC Championship Game loss to New Orleans in January 2010, did not return a call for comment. The Saints were assessed $30,000 in fines for four separate illegal hits, some against Favre, who grew up in Mississippi as a Saints fan. > > But when informed about the league’s March 2 announcement of its preliminary findings regarding New Orleans’ bounty system, the retired quarterback told Sports Illustrated, “ **I’m not pissed — it’s football**.” > > “ **I don’t think anything less of those guys** ,” Favre said. “ **Said or unsaid, guys do it anyway. If they can drill you and get you out, they will.** ” Granted, Favre doesn’t understand management like **Marley23** , but it’s pretty telling that the guy whose career they supposedly tried to end doesn’t seem to be too nonplussed about it. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-casts-down-the-saints/616427/91 "2012-03-22T23:18:49Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > So, no one ever steals $100 bill from a another persons wallet because the fines for getting caught (if they did) would be several hundred to several thousand dollars? Dude, are you following this at all? If I offered you $.25 to mug some guy, would you do it? You might if you were in the habit of mugging people already, but it likely would not be enough of an incentive to break the law if you were normally law abiding. Just addressing the cost-benefit analysis aspect of this bounty thing, arguing such a small amount of money was an inducement to break the rules, or try any harder given the various incentives and disincentives for doing so. > [@Mince](#): > > Again, why offer the bounty if it wasn’t necessary to change on-field behavior? Because it was about instilling team camaraderie and chemistry. It’s the same reason they give out championship trophies. The existence of a trophy isn’t what makes people want to win, it’s just a nice recognition for hard work. If the Superbowl trophy was lost this year, do you think Brady stops wanting to win the Superbowl? > [@Mince](#): > > Certainly I’m no moderator, but if I’m expected to follow the rules, I demand the same of others. What rules have I broken? ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-casts-down-the-saints/616427/92 "2012-03-22T23:29:54Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Right. A guy who was actually there, and actually plays football, is a dupe because he doesn’t agree with all these losers on the internet who feel they know what happened because they read a article. > [@brickbacon](#): > > Seriously, how arrogant can you be that you think that based solely on reading articles, often written based on other articles, you think you are in a better positions to judge the effects of a clandestine program better than multiple people who either play in the NFL, or were actually there. > [@brickbacon](#): > > If you think I was saying that they want to hurt people without any regard to context, play, or fairness, then maybe you need to get checked out. **Brickbacon** , let’s stop with the thinly-veiled insults, thanks. Remember what forum you’re in and dial it back a notch, take a deep breath, etc. No warning, just a note. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-casts-down-the-saints/616427/93 "2012-03-23T00:01:48Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Small point of order, as it’s come up quite a few times in this thread: > > **Payton** is the currently-suspended head coach of the New Orleans Saints. > > **Peyton** is the recently-acquired quarterback of the Denver Broncos. Further point of order, **Peyton** (the quarterback) was not “recently-acquired” in the traditional use of that term. He was signed. The Broncos owe the Colts nothing and the Broncos were not committed to honor the terms of Peyton’s old contract. It was a brand-new deal between a franchise and an unemployed player. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-casts-down-the-saints/616427/94 "2012-03-23T00:09:53Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Further point of order, **Peyton** (the quarterback) was not “recently-acquired” in the traditional use of that term. 😕 My use of the term and the traditional use of the term are, as far as i can tell, about the same. To acquire something is to come into possession or control or ownership of that thing. As far as i can tell, that’s a pretty accurate description of Denver’s relationship with Manning. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-casts-down-the-saints/616427/95 "2012-03-23T00:14:16Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Dude, are you following this at all? If I offered you $.25 to mug some guy, would you do it? You might if you were in the habit of mugging people already, but it likely would not be enough of an incentive to break the law if you were normally law abiding. Just addressing the cost-benefit analysis aspect of this bounty thing, arguing such a small amount of money was an inducement to break the rules, or try any harder given the various incentives and disincentives for doing so. Then it was pretty silly for the Saints’ coaching staff to pay for something twice, if the players were already playing the desired way and all, and it was equally silly for the players to accept the payments. > [@](#): > > Because it was about instilling team camaraderie and chemistry. It’s the same reason they give out championship trophies. The existence of a trophy isn’t what makes people want to win, it’s just a nice recognition for hard work. If the Superbowl trophy was lost this year, do you think Brady stops wanting to win the Superbowl? The thrust of my argument isn’t that it was necessarily the trivial amount of money that motivated the players. If it was the money or some macho abstaction like commaraderie and chemistry, the players took the money. Why? To continue playing the way they always play? I don’t think so. [QUOTE=brickbacon] What rules have I broken? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=brickbacon] Unlike you, the professional management consultant to the NFL? Seriously, how arrogant can you be… [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=brickbacon] …you were just being willfully obtuse in a pathetic attempt to score points. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-casts-down-the-saints/616427/96 "2012-03-23T00:24:15Z")
delete ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-casts-down-the-saints/616427/97 "2012-03-23T01:07:52Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > 😕 > > My use of the term and the traditional use of the term are, as far as i can tell, about the same. To acquire something is to come into possession or control or ownership of that thing. As far as i can tell, that’s a pretty accurate description of Denver’s relationship with Manning. It’s certainly possible that I’m in the wrong here, but my understanding is that, in professional franchise sports, the term ‘acquired’ is generally used to indicate a team that has obtained the rights to a given player from another entity (either another team or the draft). When players join a team from free-agency they are usually said to be ‘signed’. Could be just me though. Really not worth a long argument either way - especially since I shared your…concern…over the Peyton/Payton thing. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-casts-down-the-saints/616427/98 "2012-03-23T01:24:00Z")
I’m beginning to regret starting this thread. First we’ve got a really ridiculous (and godawful persistent, lengthy, and disjointed) argument based on player’s opinions of a bounty system–as if that matters. I’m sure the NFL couldn’t care less about player’s opinions before they slammed their shoe on the cockroaches. Its the NFL that runs things, not the players. Now we’re into a tangent about the meaning of “acquired”. Can we start testing SDMB members for post-concussion syndrome? ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-casts-down-the-saints/616427/99 "2012-03-23T01:34:25Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I’m beginning to regret starting this thread. > > First we’ve got a really ridiculous (and godawful persistent, lengthy, and disjointed) argument based on player’s opinions of a bounty system–as if that matters. I’m sure the NFL couldn’t care less about player’s opinions before they slammed their shoe on the cockroaches. Its the NFL that runs things, not the players. > > Now we’re into a tangent about the meaning of “acquired”. > > Can we start testing SDMB members for post-concussion syndrome? If there’s no internet message board law to describe the tendency of arguments in a thread to become ridiculously absurd the longer the thread is active, I’m inventing one. Something like: Mince’s Law states that the Quality of a thread’s discourse is inversely proportional to time. Q(sub)a=1/T where Q(sub)a is the Quality of Argument and T is time. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-casts-down-the-saints/616427/100 "2012-03-23T02:47:41Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I’m beginning to regret starting this thread. > > First we’ve got a really ridiculous (and godawful persistent, lengthy, and disjointed) argument based on player’s opinions of a bounty system–as if that matters. I’m sure the NFL couldn’t care less about player’s opinions before they slammed their shoe on the cockroaches. Its the NFL that runs things, not the players. > > Now we’re into a tangent about the meaning of “acquired”. > > Can we start testing SDMB members for post-concussion syndrome? What did you expect? (Not about the tangent on acquired, mea culpa there) I mean, yes, the NFL pounded the Saints. That’s not something subject to much discussion ‘cause it actually happened and is factual at this point. The discussion has to center around why so much and whether deserved - at which point the players’ opinions become as relevant as anybody’s. Right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-casts-down-the-saints/616427.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-casts-down-the-saints/616427.md?page=6)