NFL CBA Thread: Lockout Edition

[Hawkeyeop]

@Airman_Doors_USAF

So what? That value is meaningless until the team is sold, and even then it’s nothing more than a guesstimate. Say I want to sell something of mine, asking price $1 million. Its actual value is much less, but if i can sucker someone into paying that money for it that’s what it’s worth. If not I have to re-evaluate my asking price.

The Cowboys franchise, for instance, is worth exactly the price that someone is willing to pay for it, no more an no less, no matter what Forbes says the team is worth. Ask Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, WorldCom and Enron about valuation and what it meant to them.

If only there was a way to check the forbes estimates against actual team sales. Perhaps if we scroll down a bit in the report, hey there it is on page 11. A comparison of what Forbes valued teams as being worth and what they actually sold for. Some are higher, some are lower, but seems pretty accurate to me.

If Forbes says the cowboys are worth 1.3 billion they are probably aren’t going sell for exactly that. But they are certainly going to sell over a billion and almost as certainly under 1.5 billion. Forbes puts a lot of work into these estimates. They aren’t just making stuff up. To ignore the vast majority of ownership profits, because we can’t pin it to an exact dollar amount is disingenuous.

[gonzomax]

@Airman_Doors_USAF

Are you so intent upon pushing your agenda that you can’t trouble yourself to actually read what people say? It’s like canned replies, you see a few keywords and pull the trigger on your next pre-written post.

He never said that the taxpayers don’t chip in and finance a large portion of the construction of new stadiums. What he did say is that the owners were wholly responsible for the new stadiums, which is true. They got built because the owners pushed for them, threw their money in the ring for part of the cost (in a few cases, all of the cost), and generally made them happen.

With tax payer money. Why is it OK for taxpayers to pay to make an owner a lot more money? The Lions got Tiger stadium fixed up on tax payer money,had a new taxpayer stadium built in Pontiac ,then abandoned that when they discovered the money they could make from luxury boxes. They make the money. they should pay for the whole damn thing. I believe Ford could swing it. The owners are billionaires or close to it.
i have no agenda. That is a Fox buzzword. Explain how my believing the wealthy owners should pay for their own stadiums, particularly when it will make them a lot more money is an agenda.

[brickbacon]

@Airman_Doors_USAF

So what? That value is meaningless until the team is sold, and even then it’s nothing more than a guesstimate. Say I want to sell something of mine, asking price $1 million. Its actual value is much less, but if i can sucker someone into paying that money for it that’s what it’s worth. If not I have to re-evaluate my asking price.

The Cowboys franchise, for instance, is worth exactly the price that someone is willing to pay for it, no more an no less, no matter what Forbes says the team is worth. Ask Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, WorldCom and Enron about valuation and what it meant to them.

Nonsense. First, the Forbes valuations are more than a guesstimate. Second, even if Jerry Jones or another owner were having hard times, they could sell part of the franchise, or issue bonds based on that perceived value. Plenty of companies do everyday.

[kidchameleon]

@brickbacon

And those stadiums are rented out for the other roughly 350+ days out of the year.

That’s not close to the truth.

[kidchameleon]

@brickbacon

Nonsense. First, the Forbes valuations are more than a guesstimate. Second, even if Jerry Jones or another owner were having hard times, they could sell part of the franchise, or issue bonds based on that perceived value. Plenty of companies do everyday.

There are limits on what the owners can do in regards to their level of ownership. I’m not sure if they can issue bonds or not, but I do know that other than the existing exception of the Packers, the NFL requires one individual to be the majority or lead owner.

[gonzomax]

Better yet, the NFL prohibits another owner like the Packers. The owners fear the power of the people conflicting with their god given right to make as much money as humanly possible. They have a nice comfortable billionaires club, they want to keep it that way.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/09/05/us-nfl-tickets-idUSN0540327220080905 They jack the prices up and up. They are greedy.

[brickbacon]

@kidchameleon

That’s not close to the truth.

What? That it’s actually filled 350+ days out of the year? I guess that is a bit hyperbolic in most cases, but I know Cowboys stadium has tour damn near every day it isn’t being used for a concert or event. The point is that these stadiums can create revenue for the owners that isn’t football related.

@kidchameleon

There are limits on what the owners can do in regards to their level of ownership. I’m not sure if they can issue bonds or not, but I do know that other than the existing exception of the Packers, the NFL requires one individual to be the majority or lead owner.

Limits do not equal no options. Even if they can only sell a certain amount of their team, they can easily secure loans, and other money if they find themselves short on operating revenue temporarily. Obviously, you can nitpick my suggestions to death, but the idea that capital appreciation should not be considered as a perk of ownership even if revenue is not as high as the owners would like is ridiculous.

[Hamlet]

Until the NFL Owners open their books (Yea for the Packers!), I have a really hard time giving them any sympathy whatsoever. And until the Players Association starts ponying up investment capital, paying costs, and realize one players salary shouldn’t equal the entire revenue of the team, I have a hard time giving them any sympathy.

Millionaires vs Billionaires. At least I can still cheer for retired players to get better medical care and coverage without feeling bad.

[kidchameleon]

Yeah, in the end I could give a crap if the owners get 55% or 45%.

I’m hoping we stay with 16 games, a rookie wage scale and better benefits for retired players.

[garygnu]

Here’s an idea instead of 18 games: use preseason records as a playoff tiebreaker.

If the additional money off the top going to the owners is for re-investment into the league, put that commitment into the contract. Either way, the owners will have to open their books before anybody is going to accept such a demand. Right now they’re insisting people take them at their word about the need for it.

A criticism about the players: “damage to our bodies” is only one bargaining chip, they’re going to have to offer some other concessions. I mean, this is a negotiation, everybody has to be unsatisfied when it’s done. Accepting a rookie pay scale is a start (details of which notwithstanding).

[SenorBeef]

The players union decertified today. I’m not sure exactly what that means entirely but I guess it means we’re headed to a lockout.

I can’t believe they’re this stupid - all of them. After crazy growth they probably have a feeling of invincinbility, thinking they can’t do anything to kill their golden goose. But fans already already paying $300 for sunday ticket, assloads for tickets and parking and beer, paying out the ass to enjoy their hobby. And now their fandom is going to get derailed because of a squabble between millionaires and billionaires.

If there’s real games-missed nfl downtime, they’re going to lose more revenue than they’re currently squabbling over. It’ll be the first time the NFL shrinks - or at least the growth rate will slow significantly.

[Oakminster]

Here’s a link to a story at SI.

Basically, the players are no longer represented by a union, and there is no collective bargaining agreement. This means the league is vulnerable to anti-trust litigation. Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Drew Brees have agreed to be the named plaintiffs in the inevitable lawsuit.

[kenobi_65]

@SenorBeef

I can’t believe they’re this stupid - all of them.

I’m not sure if it’s stupidity or stubbornness, but it certainly isn’t becoming.

[Tom_Scud]

Don’t know why anyone doesn’t believe it; this kind of brinksmanship comes up every time a major sports league’s labor contract is up, and every so often they go over the edge.

[SenorBeef]

Yeah, but after this happened in baseball recently and IIRC hockey, didn’t it massively damage the fanbases of those sports? You’d think they’d learn.

[chizzuk]

@SenorBeef

Yeah, but after this happened in baseball recently and IIRC hockey, didn’t it massively damage the fanbases of those sports? You’d think they’d learn.

Baseball experienced a 20% plummet in attendance from 1994 to 1995 and the strike basically destroyed the Expos. It took attendance a long time to rebound.

I suppose the NFL thinks they’re so popular that this would never apply to them, but IIRC MLB was pretty confident of its own standing until suddenly they weren’t.

[Tom_Scud]

Basketball didn’t greatly suffer for their work stoppage. And each side stands to make billions of dollars over the course of the decade or so the labor agreement stays in force if the other guy blinks first.

[Airman_Doors_USAF]

@Oakminster

Here’s a link to a story at SI.

Basically, the players are no longer represented by a union, and there is no collective bargaining agreement. This means the league is vulnerable to anti-trust litigation. Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Drew Brees have agreed to be the named plaintiffs in the inevitable lawsuit.

That’s one hell of a roll of the dice they’re betting on, one that they lost on before. What’s the legal basis of their argument?

[Cubsfan]

I root for the Chicago Bears, not it’s players, so bring on the scabs for 2011!

I can’t identify with the millionaire players who are all over sportstalk radio claiming the fans won’t cheer for teams without their favorite players. Players have had no team loyalty since the 80’s. They head for whichever team can give them the quickest championship or the most money, not that there is anything wrong with that. Just don’t claim that the fans give a shit about you when you don’t give a shit about them now that you are gonna be locked out.

[Cubsfan]

This sounds like a pretty good deal here offered by the owners:

The NFL released the rest of what it described as a summary of its proposal to the union:

• An entry-level compensation system based on the union’s “rookie cap” proposal, rather than the wage scale proposed by the clubs. Under the NFL proposal, players drafted in rounds 2-7 would be paid the same or more than they are paid today. Savings from the first round would be reallocated to veteran players and benefits.

• A guarantee of up to $1 million of a player’s salary for the contract year after his injury the first time that the clubs have offered a standard multiyear injury guarantee.

• Immediate implementation of changes to promote player health and safety by: reducing the offseason program by five weeks, reducing OTAs (organized team activities) from 14 to 10 and limiting on-field practice time and contact; limiting full-contact practices in the preseason and regular season; and increasing number of days off for players.

• Commit that any change to an 18-game season will be made only by agreement and that the 2011 and 2012 seasons will be played under the current 16-game format.

• Financial disclosure of audited league and club profitability information that is not even shared with the NFL clubs. That was proposed by the NFL this week, and rejected by the union, which began insisting in May 2009 for a complete look at the books of all 32 clubs.

• Owner funding of $82 million in 2011-12 to support additional benefits to former players, which would increase retirement benefits for more than 2,000 former players by nearly 60 percent.

• Offer current players the opportunity to remain in the player medical plan for life.

• Third-party arbitration for appeals in the drug and steroid programs.

• Improvements in the Mackey plan (designed for players suffering from dementia and other brain-related problems), disability plan and degree-completion bonus program.

• A per-club cash minimum spend of 90 percent of the salary cap over three seasons

What else were the players looking for exactly? If they want to be Billionares instead of Millionares they should buy a team.