# NFL Collective Bargaining Agreement Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 7, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-collective-bargaining-agreement-thread/570575 "2011-02-07T20:55:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-collective-bargaining-agreement-thread/570575/141 "2011-02-10T18:49:43Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > This is absurd. Teams set prices to accomplish 2 things. 1) To cover their expenses. 2) Maximize revenue. In a perfect world doing #2 will take care of #1, but occasionally #1 exceeds #2. When the latter happens you need to lower costs, in the case of the NFL that means lowering labor costs. No you are completely missing it here. Teams set prices to maximize revenue. Always. The price of a ticket has virtually nothing to do with the cost behind it. All that determines the cost is maximizing revenues for the teams because the supply of tickets is essentially fixed. Teams come with a number, call it X, and that’s what they charge for tickets. After coming up with that number, they don’t look at their costs and say, well shoot, revenue doesn’t cover costs so lets increase X, because increasing X decreases revenue. You still haven’t answered the question. Do you agree that teams set ticket prices to maximize their revenue? > [@Omniscient](#): > > Are you just being antagonistic with me? This is the simplest concept in the world, yet you seem incapable of understanding this. Look in the mirror. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-collective-bargaining-agreement-thread/570575/142 "2011-02-10T18:58:15Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > This seems like as good a place as any to discuss valuation. What are the factors in these numbers? Inflation? Assets? Presumed income? We should have a pretty good idea in a couple months, when the [sale of the Rams goes through](http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4904863); the AP article linked estimates a sale value of about $750 million. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-collective-bargaining-agreement-thread/570575/143 "2011-02-10T19:06:51Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Indeed. But the floor, which is far more relevant to this calculation, was $112million I believe. Which would wipe a full 50% off that shortfall you mention. That still doesn’t make Gonzo’s statement correct. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-collective-bargaining-agreement-thread/570575/144 "2011-02-10T19:07:07Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > We should have a pretty good idea in a couple months, when the [sale of the Rams goes through](http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4904863); the AP article linked estimates a sale value of about $750 million. Which is right around what Forbes said the value should be. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-collective-bargaining-agreement-thread/570575/145 "2011-02-10T19:07:32Z")
True. But a $15 million gap is significantly smaller than a $30 million one. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-collective-bargaining-agreement-thread/570575/146 "2011-02-10T19:08:00Z")
> [@villa](#): > > True. But a $15 million gap is significantly smaller than a $30 million one. And? ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-collective-bargaining-agreement-thread/570575/147 "2011-02-10T19:12:01Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > [Thisl](http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/30/football-valuations-10_Green-Bay-Packers_302814.html) is the Forbes valuation of the packers. Forbes isn’t perfect, but they do give a strong unbiased account of the numbers. Before 2010, which they had the packers as making 10 million, the packers were between 20 million and 30 million profit every year going back to 2003. That seems like an entirely reasonable yearly dividend. But of course that isn’t all the owners get. We can also see the value of the franchise has gone from $337 million to over a billion in the last decade. So even if the team really did break even on operating income every year, the owners still would have tripled their money in ten years, a wildly successful investment. That increase in franchise value by the way is one of those things produced mostly by players, and something they get no cut of. Mostly by the players? Really? Nevermind the hundred million dollar new stadiums, practice facilities, broadcast networks, merchandise sales and hundred year legacies, for which the players bear no cost. As much as I love these players and what they can do, the NFL would be 90% as successful if they fired all these guys and hired the next thousand or so football players toiling away in the CFL, AFL, UFL and recently out of college. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-collective-bargaining-agreement-thread/570575/148 "2011-02-10T19:15:41Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Mostly by the players? Really? Nevermind the hundred million dollar new stadiums, practice facilities, broadcast networks, merchandise sales and hundred year legacies, for which the players bear no cost. As much as I love these players and what they can do, the NFL would be 90% as successful if they fired all these guys and hired the next thousand or so football players toiling away in the CFL, AFL, UFL and recently out of college. No, they wouldn’t. Because someone would be smart enough to hire the ex-NFL players for half their current salaries and create the New NFL, and everyone would know which league was superior. (Of course it won’t come to that because the owners are smart enough not to murder the goose that’s been laying golden eggs for them for decades). ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-collective-bargaining-agreement-thread/570575/149 "2011-02-10T19:18:26Z")
Back to the original purpose of the thread, to discuss breaking news and developments, the owners walked away from the negotiating table today following a supposed 50-50 offer by the players. Story here: [http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6107737](http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6107737) Here’s the juicy bit. > [@](#): > > Wednesday’s meeting in Washington started badly, one source said, when the owners’ negotiating team interpreted the union’s proposal of a 49 percent to 51 percent take as “total revenue,” instead of the union’s intended percentage take of “all revenue.” > > At the current revenue levels, “total revenue” has been defined as an estimated $9 billion gross, minus a $1 billion credit in the owners’ favor. In the current CBA deal about to expire, the union’s share has been estimated at about 60 percent of $8 billion, once the $1 billion credit was subtracted. > > Owners have asked for an additional $1 billion credit – or $2 billion in total – before it splits “total revenue” with players. > > Smith has stated that the union would need to examine all of the owners’ financial books before it would accept a substantial reduction in allowing the additional $1 billion in credits > > To simplify talks, a player source said the union told the owners’ negotiating team that it will forgo its request to examine the league’s financial books by simply taking the flat 50 percent cut of “all revenue,” which would eliminate $1 billion to $2 billion credits off the top and erase the definition of “total revenue.” ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-collective-bargaining-agreement-thread/570575/150 "2011-02-10T19:18:43Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Mostly by the players? Really? Nevermind the hundred million dollar new stadiums, practice facilities, broadcast networks, merchandise sales and hundred year legacies, for which the players bear no cost. As much as I love these players and what they can do, the NFL would be 90% as successful if they fired all these guys and hired the next thousand or so football players toiling away in the CFL, AFL, UFL and recently out of college. The cost of most of the new stadiums and practice facilities were extorted from the taxpayers - build us a palace or we’ll move the team - so I take those team costs with a grain of salt. Broadcast networks and merchandise/licensing sales generate INCOME to the teams, not costs. I have no idea what you mean by “hundred year legacies.” ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-collective-bargaining-agreement-thread/570575/151 "2011-02-12T00:13:28Z")
I have a question regarding how players are paid. I assumed players were paid 1/16th of their salary for every game they play. What hard does a lockout in March do to the players? The players won’t be losing any money and I assume the only people who will be losing money would be the support personnel. The owners would save some money, but the players likely wouldn’t be facing any financial loss until August or September and therefore wouldn’t be getting any serious pressure to settle until then. Why not start the lockout then? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-collective-bargaining-agreement-thread/570575/152 "2011-02-12T03:18:51Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > The cost of most of the new stadiums and practice facilities were extorted from the taxpayers - build us a palace or we’ll move the team - so I take those team costs with a grain of salt. Broadcast networks and merchandise/licensing sales generate INCOME to the teams, not costs. I have no idea what you mean by “hundred year legacies.” There are several examples of this kind of extortion. The Bengals are a perfect example. Yes, the Hamilton county voters approved the sales tax increase to try to shoulder the burden of the construction and the ongoing maintenance of Paul Brown stadium, but at the time, the economic collapse could not be foreseen. Now Cincinnati is considering a plethora of budget cuts to essential services just so Mike Brown will keep his team here. Its fucking bullshit. The whole thing is ugly. I appreciate the position of both sides. IMO, players, especially 1st round rookies, get way too much guaranteed money for never having played an NFL down. Its a lot of risk and financial investment for the owner in that case. OTOH, players don’t really have guaranteed contracts like baseball does, and given the short shelf-life of NFL careers, I’m inclined to be sympathetic towards them. Ultimately, like any NFL fan, I’m hoping for a compromise of some sort. But whatever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-collective-bargaining-agreement-thread/570575.md?page=7)