# NFL: It's nice to see holdouts finally getting their comeuppance. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 4, 2005, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-its-nice-to-see-holdouts-finally-getting-their-comeuppance/324797 "2005-10-04T22:19:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-its-nice-to-see-holdouts-finally-getting-their-comeuppance/324797/1 "2005-10-04T22:19:19Z")
You all remember last year when Ricky Williams retired. He thought he could walk away without any consequences. Well, as soon as he was told that he would have to pay back the $8+ million in signing bonus he suddenly became gung-ho for coming back. I thought that that would be a one-shot deal due to the unique circumstances of the case, but it appears that the arbitrators are beginning to agree with the owners: [McCardell must repay Buccaneers $1.5 million](http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2181029) > [@](#): > > “When Keenan McCardell refused to report to Tampa Bay in 2004 as a tactic to renegotiate his contract, he violated its terms and is required to return the $1.5 million received by him as signing and roster bonuses,” said Dennis Curran, senior vice president and general counsel of the NFL Management Council, which supported the decision of the arbitrator. “Upholding those provisions discourages player holdouts at all teams.” My God, what a novelty that would be, a situation where the players have to live up to their contracts! How intriguing! Of course, here comes the owner bashing, about how the players get used and abused and then thrown to the curb when something happens to them. There are three things I have to say to that: 1. The owners provide the jobs and therefore have a right to expect a return on investment. The players, by all rights, should not get any more than an average Wal-Mart employee, but they have managed to get more through collective bargaining. That brings me to point 2… 2. The players signed the collective bargaining agreement, and as long as the owners live up to their end they have no bitch, and no right to hold out without penalty. The star of my team, Hines Ward, held out for more money. Using the production-based economy of the NFL he deserved a raise, but I must say that he was obligated to fulfill his contract, which he did by coming back and playing in the first game and part of the preseason. It still leaves a bad taste in my mouth, though. If you sign a contract you live up to it. Period. 3. Nobody bleeds for a millionaire getting a massive severance package and the freedom to go elsewhere. Well, maybe some of you do, but I sure as hell don’t. The bottom line is that the players are starting to find out that they can’t screw around anymore, and that breaks my heart not even a little bit. They are employees, and as an employee of many companies that paid me not even a hundredth of what some of these cats make I have no sympathy. Hopefully this trend will continue, starting with that arrogant ass T.O. when he tries that crap again next year. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-its-nice-to-see-holdouts-finally-getting-their-comeuppance/324797/2 "2005-10-04T22:29:18Z")
I’m not sure anyone truly understands how happy I was when the Pakers didn’t cave to Walker. Now I’m just fucking ecstatic about it. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-its-nice-to-see-holdouts-finally-getting-their-comeuppance/324797/3 "2005-10-04T22:49:40Z")
Does this mean that we get some cap room back? While I’m at it, in what topsy turvy universe would NFL players get paid the same scale as Wal\*Mart employees? Who the hell would subject themsevles to that kind of pain and potential injury for a low wage and no benefits? They have a skill that people will pay (lots of) money to watch. Sure, the owners provided the capital and created the market, but without the players there would be no market. Both sides deserve something, and they get exactly what they bargained for. The problem is just that the players get hit with the greed and guilt more when they try and hold out for something more. I don’t worry that Keyshawn Johnson or Peyton Manning is underpaid. I do, however, feel bad about the poor schmoe who struggles in the trenches and/or on special teams, then is crippled or seriously debilitated for life and dies at an early age. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-its-nice-to-see-holdouts-finally-getting-their-comeuppance/324797/4 "2005-10-04T22:57:27Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > Does this mean that we get some cap room back? Yeah, about a million bucks. > [@](#): > > While I’m at it, in what topsy turvy universe would NFL players get paid the same scale as Wal\*Mart employees? Who the hell would subject themsevles to that kind of pain and potential injury for a low wage and no benefits? Oh, I don’t know. Maybe the single mother that screws her back up for $7.50/hr because she has to feed her kids? How are the players entitled to more? Answer: they’re not. Nobody is entitled to anything, but they think they are which is why these holdouts happen. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-its-nice-to-see-holdouts-finally-getting-their-comeuppance/324797/5 "2005-10-04T23:02:21Z")
In a perfect world, nobody would pay them to play football at all. But the fact that some of those prima donnas are getting whacked for breaking theirs contracts brings a tear of joy to my eye. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-its-nice-to-see-holdouts-finally-getting-their-comeuppance/324797/6 "2005-10-04T23:04:55Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > Oh, I don’t know. Maybe the single mother that screws her back up for $7.50/hr because she has to feed her kids? How are the players entitled to more? Answer: they’re not. Nobody is entitled to anything, but they think they are which is why these holdouts happen. I still don’t see how you can say a NFL player should recieve the same as a Wal-Mart Employee. Try replacing Javon Walker and then try replacing your single mother. I’m sorry but her skills just are not particularly valuable because they are not particlarly scarce. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-its-nice-to-see-holdouts-finally-getting-their-comeuppance/324797/7 "2005-10-04T23:06:13Z")
As long as the sheep continue to shell out big bucks to see these clowns and buy their merchandise, they’ll continue to demand (and receive) bigger bucks. Vicious circle. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-its-nice-to-see-holdouts-finally-getting-their-comeuppance/324797/8 "2005-10-04T23:11:35Z")
> [@Gangster Octopus](#): > > I still don’t see how you can say a NFL player should recieve the same as a Wal-Mart Employee. Try replacing Javon Walker and then try replacing your single mother. I’m sorry but her skills just are not particularly valuable because they are not particlarly scarce. That has nothing to do with the question that was asked. However, I will respond to you by saying that having athletic ability is hardly a “valuable skill”. It is an overvalued skill because people find games entertaining (admittedly I am one of them). But the guy that catches a football is certainly no more valuable than the guy who cleans the crappers at the stadium after the game. Hey, I can catch a football! Put me in, coach! Pay me! ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-its-nice-to-see-holdouts-finally-getting-their-comeuppance/324797/9 "2005-10-04T23:11:44Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > Oh, I don’t know. Maybe the single mother that screws her back up for $7.50/hr because she has to feed her kids? How are the players entitled to more? Answer: they’re not. Nobody is entitled to anything, but they think they are which is why these holdouts happen. For someone who is nominally conservative you really don’t understand supply and demand very well. Good news on the cap thing, though. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-its-nice-to-see-holdouts-finally-getting-their-comeuppance/324797/10 "2005-10-04T23:13:26Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > For someone who is nominally conservative you really don’t understand supply and demand very well. Oh, I understand it very well. It’s amazing what a conscience can do to you, though. Besides, I’m siding with Big Business. Isn’t that what Conservatives do? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-its-nice-to-see-holdouts-finally-getting-their-comeuppance/324797/11 "2005-10-04T23:26:17Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > Oh, I understand it very well. It’s amazing what a conscience can do to you, though. > > Besides, I’m siding with Big Business. Isn’t that what Conservatives do? 😛 I guess to some extent. But you’re neglecting that the NFL is a valid, and wildly successful business model, and the commodity they provide (sports/games in the way of entertainment) relies on the likes of Randy Moss, Hines Ward, Peyton Manning, Michael Vick, etc. Swap those guys to Wal_Mart and the Wal_Mart employees to the NFL and the business model fails. Employee satisfaction is not an inconsequential part of the successful business equation, especially when your business is the employees, by and large. It’s the balance part of it that’s tricky. Ask the NHL owners about this one. ---
**Author:** ![brownie55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f14d63/32.png) [@brownie55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brownie55)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-its-nice-to-see-holdouts-finally-getting-their-comeuppance/324797/12 "2005-10-04T23:37:30Z")
And when the team cuts a player in the 2nd year of a 5 year “contract”? The contracts are only binding in one direction? Until the money is guaranteed, I supprort the right to hold out. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-its-nice-to-see-holdouts-finally-getting-their-comeuppance/324797/13 "2005-10-04T23:43:13Z")
> [@brownie55](#): > > And when the team cuts a player in the 2nd year of a 5 year “contract”? > > The contracts are only binding in one direction? > > Until the money is guaranteed, I supprort the right to hold out. The player isn’t being forced to sign, is he? He IS reading the contract BEFORE he signs it, right? ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-its-nice-to-see-holdouts-finally-getting-their-comeuppance/324797/14 "2005-10-04T23:44:39Z")
Poor old Phil Rivers didn’t have to get sued to be punished for his holdout. Instead of reporting on time and accepting the starting quarterback job that the Chargers were dying to hand him, he decided a few extra bucks were more important. What happened? Seemingly-on-his-way-out Drew Brees caught fire, and poor Phil is in the middle of another year stuck on the sidelines. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-its-nice-to-see-holdouts-finally-getting-their-comeuppance/324797/15 "2005-10-04T23:45:16Z")
Read [this](http://www.askthecommish.com/salarycap/faq.asp) and tell me if you think the players are getting screwed. > [@](#): > > Question 1.7c > Hold on. You said the team could release the player BEFORE the big money kicks in. Are you telling me that the contracts are NOT guaranteed? > > Answer: That’s right. The team is not obligated to fork over the money for remaining years of the contract if they cut the player. > > Question 1.7d > If that is true, why would any player be willing to sign such a back loaded contract if they will most likely never see the big money at the end of the contract? > > Answer: Ah. That is where signing bonuses come into play. > > In order to convince the player to sign such a cap friendly contract, the team will fork over a large signing bonus. The signing bonus is guaranteed, so that money is the player’s to keep if the team decides to release him later. > > Question 1.7e > That’s cheating! How can you have a real salary cap if all you have to do is give a player a signing bonus to get around it? > > Answer: Now we come to the tricky part. The signing bonus IS part of the player’s salary. So it counts against the cap. When determining team and player salary, the signing bonus will be prorated over the length of the contract. > > For example, if a player signs a four-year deal with a $1 million signing bonus, $250,000 of that bonus will count toward team salary for each contract year ($1 million divided evenly over the four-year contract is $250,000 per year). If a team releases a player, the unamoratized bonus money (the remaining prorated bonus money) counts immediately against the cap. > > In our example above, if the player is released after Year 1, the remaining $750,000 (the prorated signing bonus money for years 2-4) counts against the cap in Year 2 – even though the player is no longer on the team’s roster. The primadonna holdout-type players know the deal up front and they protect themselves by demanding (and getting) big signing bonuses. Anybody who says that they don’t get paid is deluding themselves. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-its-nice-to-see-holdouts-finally-getting-their-comeuppance/324797/16 "2005-10-04T23:57:44Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > The primadonna holdout-type players know the deal up front and they protect themselves by demanding (and getting) big signing bonuses. Anybody who says that they don’t get paid is deluding themselves. Again, to be clear, I have about 0% sympathy for the holdout players. There may be exceptions, but I can’t think of any at this point. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-its-nice-to-see-holdouts-finally-getting-their-comeuppance/324797/17 "2005-10-05T00:23:14Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > I’m not sure anyone truly understands how happy I was when the Pakers didn’t cave to Walker. Now I’m just fucking ecstatic about it. Exhibit A why players hold out. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-its-nice-to-see-holdouts-finally-getting-their-comeuppance/324797/18 "2005-10-05T02:00:04Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Exhibit A why players hold out. Exhibit B, of course, would be signing the contract knowing an injury is a possibility. But let’s not worry about that, right? ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-its-nice-to-see-holdouts-finally-getting-their-comeuppance/324797/19 "2005-10-05T02:00:29Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > without the players there would be no market. While that may be true in the NHL, it is not the case in the NFL. The league chugged along pretty well with scabs in the strike years. I have yet to hear a single person ever devalue the Redksins Superbowl win during the strike-shortened season in '87. (Assuming I have the year and team right.) No, the only mention I hear of that is about how great Joe Gibbs was to win three Superbowls with three different QBs. (A sentiment I wholly agree with.) Although I’m a bit concerned with the trend for penalizing players for retiring, ala Ricky Williams. That failsafe seemed to me to even the scales appropriately: The team can cut you, terminating the contract and giving the player no more money. The player can retire, terminating the contract and giving the team no more snaps. To me, that was parity, in that neither side ws guaranteed to have the contract fulfilled. I mean, if The Chad or William Peterson have to retire due to their injuries, do they have to pay back all the money they got in their recently signed big contracts? That would seem pretty shitty to me. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-its-nice-to-see-holdouts-finally-getting-their-comeuppance/324797/20 "2005-10-05T02:38:42Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > To me, that was parity, in that neither side ws guaranteed to have the contract fulfilled. I mean, if The Chad or William Peterson have to retire due to their injuries, do they have to pay back all the money they got in their recently signed big contracts? That would seem pretty shitty to me. You’re mixing apples and oranges. There is a difference between voluntary retirement, such as what Ricky Williams did, and involuntary retirement, such as Joe Theismann (unless you think that he could have come back from that…). Punking out without fulfilling your contract is vastly different from being unable to fulfill your contract. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-its-nice-to-see-holdouts-finally-getting-their-comeuppance/324797.md?page=2)