# NFL MVP: Vick or Brady (or other)? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [December 21, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-mvp-vick-or-brady-or-other/564970 "2010-12-21T17:07:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-mvp-vick-or-brady-or-other/564970/21 "2010-12-21T19:55:18Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Of course, but he is hardly the only quarterback dealing with injuries, what about Aaron Rodgers, for example. I just don’t see how he can be third on anybody’s list. Rodgers has been hurt himself and Driver was out for a while, but do you think that compares to the Colts’ problems? Maybe I’m not aware of some other Green Bay injuries. ---
**Author:** ![Kiros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/439d5e/32.png) [@Kiros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiros)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-mvp-vick-or-brady-or-other/564970/22 "2010-12-21T20:02:15Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Rodgers has been hurt himself and Driver was out for a while, but do you think that compares to the Colts’ problems? Maybe I’m not aware of some other Green Bay injuries. The other big ones on offense would be Ryan Grant and Jermichael Finley - easy to forget because it’s been most of the season and the offense has been good without them, but those were supposed to be the two most important targets in the offense after Jennings this year. As for the MVP this year: 1. Brady 2. Vick 3. Rivers ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-mvp-vick-or-brady-or-other/564970/23 "2010-12-21T20:22:08Z")
As a Patriots fan, it’s a no-brainer for me: Brady. He has been a man possessed since New England’s loss in Week 9 to Cleveland. He single-handedly turned the team around. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-mvp-vick-or-brady-or-other/564970/24 "2010-12-22T04:25:35Z")
I go with Brady. But if Vick can finish another game or two the way he did his last one, I can see him grabbing a bunch of votes. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-mvp-vick-or-brady-or-other/564970/25 "2010-12-22T05:12:59Z")
> [@Kiros](#): > > The other big ones on offense would be Ryan Grant and Jermichael Finley - easy to forget because it’s been most of the season and the offense has been good without them, but those were supposed to be the two most important targets in the offense after Jennings this year. The Pack have been just killed by injuries, though, other than the ones you mention, the only offensive players who’ve missed significant time has been Mark Tauscher (tackle, now on injured reserve) and Korey Hall (fullback, missed several games). It’s been on defense where they’ve really been decimated – they have four guys who have started at linebacker now on injured reserve (Barnett, Poppinga, Chillar, and Jones), and one of their starting safeties (Bigby) spent the first half of the season on the PUP list. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-mvp-vick-or-brady-or-other/564970/26 "2010-12-22T14:30:35Z")
Brady is totally the product of a plug and play system. Even his INT streak is dependent on at least 15 dropped interceptions over 6 games. If you are looking for an MVP, I present Sam Bradford. A rookie who has turned a 1-15 team into a possible 8-8 4th seed and has done it with a decimated reciever corps, a decimated TE corps and no real backup to a beat up Steven Jackson. ---
**Author:** ![soulmurk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@soulmurk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulmurk)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-mvp-vick-or-brady-or-other/564970/27 "2010-12-22T14:57:50Z")
Between those two players, I’d say Vick. Brady is a phenomenal player and is a huge part of that team’s success and absolutely deserves to be in the discussion, but Vick is single-handedly covering for a lot of deficiencies in the Eagles. I think that without him, the Eagles are an 8-8 team at best, whereas without Brady, the Patriots would still be an elite team. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-mvp-vick-or-brady-or-other/564970/28 "2010-12-22T16:05:59Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > The first definition is the MVP is the best player on the best team. This ignores the fact that football is a team game (it is an individual award, after all), but it also ignores the effect the team has on the player. Since Matt Cassell stepped in to replace Brady when he was hurt I have been of the opinion that the Patriots can win with any quarterback, it’s as much the system as the player. Still, under this first definition, it’s Tom Brady this year. I have never found this argument terribly persuasive, but it’s the usual basis for the MVP/Heisman Trophy/most other individual award voting. > > The second definition is the MVP is a player that is indispensable to his own team, without which they suffer and lose games they might otherwise win. It’s hard to measure that, I grant you, but under that definition the MVP is undoubtedly Troy Polamalu. Over the last two seasons (this year and last) the Steelers are 14-4 with Polamalu and 5-7 without him ([Cite](http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/steelers/2010-12-20-troy-polamalu_N.htm)). That indicates his immense value to the team, and since the team is competitive with him and not so much without him, he ought to be the Most Valuable Player. It’ll never happen, but I find that argument persuasive and I always have. Most Valuable clearly means the second definition, otherwise the award would be something like the NFL player of the year award. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-mvp-vick-or-brady-or-other/564970/29 "2010-12-23T04:36:52Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > Carrying his team more than any other player. Take away Brady, Rivers, or Vick, and their teams are still good enough to make (or contend for) the playoffs. Without Manning, the Colts aren’t even decent. I think Cassel is carrying his team every bit as much as Manning, maybe moreso. Take away Cassel and not only do the Chiefs not win games, they may not score a point. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-mvp-vick-or-brady-or-other/564970/30 "2010-12-23T05:34:12Z")
I think MVP generally means to most people “best player on the best team”, but it really should mean “player that makes the single most difference to his team” - if there’s a player that makes what would be a 0-16 team into a 6-10 team, they should be the MVP even though their team sucks. ---
**Author:** ![Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swords_to_Plowshares)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-mvp-vick-or-brady-or-other/564970/31 "2010-12-23T05:47:27Z")
Tom Brady: 14 games played, 66% completion, 254 yards/game, 31 TDs, 4 INTs Michael Vick: 11 games played, 63% completion, 250 yards/game, 20 TDs, 5 INTs So, the stats are really close. I would have a hard time picking one over the other, even by SenorBeef’s definition. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-mvp-vick-or-brady-or-other/564970/32 "2010-12-23T05:50:35Z")
That’s not factoring in Vick’s 8 rushing TDs. If you count rushing TDs, and convert it into TDs per game, Vick is at 2.54 and Brady is at 2.21. Vick’s interceptions per game suffers under that adjustment though. But I don’t think just the stats in isolation are conclusive. Vick changes the way that defenses game plan in a way that opens up the running game for example. It also doesn’t figure in supporting cast (especially in regards to how well the rest of the team would perform in the absense of that player) and other factors. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-mvp-vick-or-brady-or-other/564970/33 "2010-12-23T11:26:03Z")
If they have similar per-game stats but Brady played more games, Brady is more valuable pretty much by definition. Injuries are a downer and somewhat random, but even with that, there were at least three games where Vick had zero value. It’s hard to argue that Vick was better than Brady by three games worth. ---
**Author:** ![Jules\_Andre](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jules_andre/32/9334_2.png) [@Jules\_Andre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jules_Andre)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2010, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-mvp-vick-or-brady-or-other/564970/34 "2010-12-25T03:49:35Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I think Cassel is carrying his team every bit as much as Manning, maybe moreso. Take away Cassel and not only do the Chiefs not win games, they may not score a point. The Chiefs have the #1 rushing attack in the league. Cassel has nothing to do with that. He isn’t even the MVP on his own team. If you wanted to argue Jamaal Charles was the MVP of the entire league, that’s something to get behind. Definitely not Cassel, though. At this point I’d take Brady for MVP. I think it’s closer than most think, and Vick can still take the honor if he has two more outstanding games and Brady loses one… but it’s still Brady. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2010, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-mvp-vick-or-brady-or-other/564970/35 "2010-12-25T04:22:13Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > The second definition is the MVP is a player that is indispensable to his own team, without which they suffer and lose games they might otherwise win. It’s hard to measure that, I grant you, but under that definition the MVP is undoubtedly Troy Polamalu. Over the last two seasons (this year and last) the Steelers are 14-4 with Polamalu and 5-7 without him ([Cite](http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/steelers/2010-12-20-troy-polamalu_N.htm)). That indicates his immense value to the team, and since the team is competitive with him and not so much without him, he ought to be the Most Valuable Player. It’ll never happen, but I find that argument persuasive and I always have. It’s a persuasive argument only if you can demonstrate that Polamanu’s presence or absence was in fact the reason the Steelers were 14-4 in one set of games and 5-7 in the other. That might seem like a stupid thing to ask, but consider this; throughout the NFL there are DOZENS of starting players who’ve missed a number of games over the last couple of seasons to injury. Just by random chance, it’s inevitable a few will happen to see their team post remarkably different records with and without them in the lineup. That doesn’t necessarily mean THEY were the reason for it, though; it’s likelier to be sheer random chance. If in fact the presence of Polamanu could be shown to turn sub-.500 teams into football powerhouses again and again, that would demonstrate his value - actually, if Troy Polamanu actually was worth 300 points of winning percentage, **he’d be the greatest athlete in the history of North American professional team sports.** But over just 30 games, it’s not yet past “probably just a fluke.” On the surface it does seem extraordinarily doubtful that one safety, who is not visibly any sort of Superman and isn’t making seven or eight interceptions a game or anything like that, could turn a bad team into a Super Bowl contender. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-mvp-vick-or-brady-or-other/564970/36 "2010-12-26T13:43:26Z")
> [@Jules\_Andre](#): > > The Chiefs have the #1 rushing attack in the league. Cassel has nothing to do with that. He isn’t even the MVP on his own team. If you wanted to argue Jamaal Charles was the MVP of the entire league, that’s something to get behind. Definitely not Cassel, though. Without Matt Cassel they can’t run. They can’t do anything at all, in fact. I still vote for Brady; just playing devil’s advocate. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-mvp-vick-or-brady-or-other/564970/37 "2010-12-26T20:17:57Z")
The best player on the best team? That would be Matt Ryan. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-mvp-vick-or-brady-or-other/564970/38 "2010-12-26T22:27:33Z")
Eagles have a bunch of young (but exciting players) on what was supposed to be a rebuilding year where they started to become a fully realized team. Typical predictions pre-season, nationally and locally, hovered in the 7 - 9 to 9 - 7 range (with the occasional lunatic at either end of the _great-awful_ spectrum), and I think that was right (as soulmurk said first)–that is, before Michael Vick got an unexpected start and played absolutely out of his mind, something no one predicted. It’s impossible to overstate the effect that Michael Vick has had on this team, the leadership, the come-from-behind wins, the confidence instilled, and the virtually impossible task of defending him. We’re going to win the division and have a shot at the #2 seed, and brother, we ain’t remotely close to that without Vick. No quarterback, Brady included, brings all the dimensions Vick does, no QB has created a bigger difference to his team’s win-loss record, IMO. I say Vick, with Brady a respectable second. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-mvp-vick-or-brady-or-other/564970/39 "2010-12-26T23:35:04Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Eagles have a bunch of young (but exciting players) on what was supposed to be a rebuilding year where they started to become a fully realized team. Typical predictions pre-season, nationally and locally, hovered in the 7 - 9 to 9 - 7 range (with the occasional lunatic at either end of the _great-awful_ spectrum), and I think that was right (as soulmurk said first)–that is, before Michael Vick got an unexpected start and played absolutely out of his mind, something no one predicted. > > It’s impossible to overstate the effect that Michael Vick has had on this team, the leadership, the come-from-behind wins, the confidence instilled, and the virtually impossible task of defending him. We’re going to win the division and have a shot at the #2 seed, and brother, we ain’t remotely close to that without Vick. No quarterback, Brady included, brings all the dimensions Vick does, no QB has created a bigger difference to his team’s win-loss record, IMO. > > I say Vick, with Brady a respectable second. The patriots were predicted by many to be in a rebuilding year and by most to finish 2nd to the jets, that is until Brady had arguable the best season of his career throwing to rookie tight ends and washed up castaways. Because he has played the WHOLE season at this level, the patriots have won home field , an enormously valuable advantage , worth an extra game or 2 in win-loss record difference to his team I think. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2010, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-mvp-vick-or-brady-or-other/564970/40 "2010-12-27T00:18:23Z")
Did anyone NOT pick the Patriots to make the playoffs? Lots of people predicted the Eagles would miss. Brady has had a great year, and the Pats have outperformed most predictions, at least somewhat. But not to the extent that the Eagles have. And Brady cannot do all the things that Vick can. He just can’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-mvp-vick-or-brady-or-other/564970.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-mvp-vick-or-brady-or-other/564970.md?page=3)