# NFL offseason discussion (up to but not including draft) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 22, 2008, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-offseason-discussion-up-to-but-not-including-draft/438702 "2008-02-22T07:02:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2008, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-offseason-discussion-up-to-but-not-including-draft/438702/281 "2008-03-08T16:09:19Z")
[QUOTE=SenorBeef] So I supposed you’d like to see [this](http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/nfl_experts/post/Former-Bengal-Chad-Johnson-punched-Marvin-Lewis;_ylt=Aub0F1kBoiH7ePJbhBjmi2BDubYF?urn=nfl,70610). Ugh. I feel bad for Shaun Smith. He talked openly and honestly about various things at a Browns backers banquet which someone from the message board I hang out on taped. Then he put them up briefly so that we (the message board users) could see it. Somehow profootballtalk saw it, and then rotoworld, and now its way all the way to yahoo… [/QUOTE] Yeah, my Bengals board is all over that. We then proceeded to scrutinize in minutae the next day Marvin Lewis press photos, and we saw no evidence there was a shiner. So Chad either hits like a girl, Marvin didn’t get hit in the eye or it didn’t happen. Something happened, though, and the team hasn’t been the same since. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-offseason-discussion-up-to-but-not-including-draft/438702/282 "2008-03-08T16:56:52Z")
[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil] Yeah, my Bengals board is all over that. We then proceeded to scrutinize in minutae the next day Marvin Lewis press photos, and we saw no evidence there was a shiner. So Chad either hits like a girl, Marvin didn’t get hit in the eye or it didn’t happen. Something happened, though, and the team hasn’t been the same since. [/QUOTE] I think he could hit like a girl. It amazes me how girly these professional athletes throw punches sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-offseason-discussion-up-to-but-not-including-draft/438702/283 "2008-03-09T01:20:17Z")
Now Brian Kelly is a Lion. The Tampa-to-Detroit parade keeps on going! ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-offseason-discussion-up-to-but-not-including-draft/438702/284 "2008-03-09T02:05:16Z")
Scouts Inc’s ratings are total garbage. They don’t make any sense. Chad Johnson’s the best player in the NFL. Steve Smith – the one on the Giants – is the 4th highest rated receiver in the league and the best player on his team. Houshmandzadeh’s like the 30th best receiver. Randy Moss is like a 71 rating. Alge Crumpler’s as good as Terrell Owens. Etc. It’s the craziest shit I’ve ever seen. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-offseason-discussion-up-to-but-not-including-draft/438702/285 "2008-03-09T05:23:55Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] PM me if you want your team’s evaluations or a certain player’s evaluations. [/QUOTE] Jimmy raises a valid criticism. Without giving the grades – to avoid copyright issues – could you post the top 10 rated players, from best to worst, for the QB, WR and CB positions? That would help us assess whether they are as insane as Jimmy says. ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-offseason-discussion-up-to-but-not-including-draft/438702/286 "2008-03-09T05:38:14Z")
QBs Peyton Manning95 Tom Brady 92 Carson Palmer 82 Drew Brees 82 Donovan McNabb 79 Matt Hasselbeck 79 Ben Roethlisberger 78 Brett Favre 75 Marc Bulger 75 Philip Rivers 75 WRs Chad Johnson 95 Marvin Harrison 91 Steve Smith 91 Torry Holt 85 Steve Smith 85 (NYG) Andre Johnson85 Terrell Owens 83 Hines Ward 83 Larry Fitzgerald 82 Rod Smith 81 RBs LaDainian Tomlinson 94 Larry Johnson 85 Reggie Bush 80 Frank Gore 80 Shaun Alexander 80 Deuce McAllister 79 Edgerrin James 79 Clinton Portis 79 Fred Taylor 79 Brian Westbrook 78 ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-offseason-discussion-up-to-but-not-including-draft/438702/287 "2008-03-09T05:39:16Z")
Sorry, did RBs instead of CBs 1 Champ Bailey 93 2 Rashean Mathis 83 3 Nate Clements 82 4 Antoine Winfield 81 5 Chris McAlister 81 6 DeAngelo Hall 80 7 Terence Newman 79 8 Asante Samuel 79 9 Dre Bly 78 10 Nnamdi Asomugha 78 ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-offseason-discussion-up-to-but-not-including-draft/438702/288 "2008-03-09T05:55:06Z")
Yeah, I’m going to go ahead and call bullshit on those rankings. The Giants’ Steve Smith is better than Larry Fitzgerald? Reggie Bush is better than Brian Westbrook? But even if those ratings define the franchise players, let’s look at the top 10 CBs: Champ Bailey - traded Rashean Mathis - career Jaguar Nate Clements - free agent Antoine Winfield - free agent Chris McAlister - career Raven DeAngelo Hall - free agent Terence Newman - career Cowboy Asante Samuel - free agent Dre Bly - free agent (and subsequently traded; he’s on his third team) Nnamdi Asomugha - career Raider Of the ten top CBs, only four are still with their original team, five hit the waiver wire\*, and one was traded away. It’s pretty clear that while you have a point about left tackles, you’re way off base with cornerbacks. \*Technically they hit free agency, not the waiver wire, but I love that phrasing. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-offseason-discussion-up-to-but-not-including-draft/438702/289 "2008-03-09T13:13:09Z")
[QUOTE=Jimmy Chitwood] Scouts Inc’s ratings are total garbage. They don’t make any sense. Chad Johnson’s the best player in the NFL. Steve Smith – the one on the Giants – is the 4th highest rated receiver in the league and the best player on his team. Houshmandzadeh’s like the 30th best receiver. Randy Moss is like a 71 rating. Alge Crumpler’s as good as Terrell Owens. Etc. It’s the craziest shit I’ve ever seen. [/QUOTE] I think Scouts Inc. is very harsh on grading, but that’s fine if everyone’s graded equally harshly, correct? The scouting numbers ARE still from last year, though. I’d expect Randy Moss’s numbers to be a smidgen higher this (past) year. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-offseason-discussion-up-to-but-not-including-draft/438702/290 "2008-03-09T14:12:50Z")
As a Bengals fan, and I take my fandom pretty seriously, if Chad Johnson is listed as the best WR on Scout’s list, that’s all I need to know about them being absolute garbage. Randy Moss isn’t even IN the top ten? Didn’t he, like, set the new record for TD’s in a season last year? LOL. Edit: I just saw this is from last year, apparently. Chad Johnson is still not the best wideout in the NFL by last year’s standards either. The guy doesn’t score TD’s! He had FIVE last year and THREE of them were in ONE game! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-offseason-discussion-up-to-but-not-including-draft/438702/291 "2008-03-09T14:53:47Z")
[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil] As a Bengals fan, and I take my fandom pretty seriously, if Chad Johnson is listed as the best WR on Scout’s list, that’s all I need to know about them being absolute garbage. Randy Moss isn’t even IN the top ten? Didn’t he, like, set the new record for TD’s in a season last year? LOL. Edit: I just saw this is from last year, apparently. Chad Johnson is still not the best wideout in the NFL by last year’s standards either. The guy doesn’t score TD’s! He had FIVE last year and THREE of them were in ONE game! [/QUOTE] Well, actually, if those numbers don’t include 2007, they make much more sense if you look at them from a consistency standpoint. Johnson is #1 or #2 in receiving in the AFC year in and year out. Bailey is ballyhooed by the announcers year in and year out without ever actually seeming to play very well. Obviously, some of the names on there are plain ol’ nuts - Steve Smith II, Rod Smith (hasn’t done anything in years), etc. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-offseason-discussion-up-to-but-not-including-draft/438702/292 "2008-03-09T15:08:38Z")
Also, I wasn’t aware that Deangelo Hall actually hit free agency. I know he’s being dangled as trade bait. To further nitpick, Dre Bly wasn’t the superstud that he ended up being when he was picked up in free agency by the Lions. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-offseason-discussion-up-to-but-not-including-draft/438702/293 "2008-03-09T15:37:37Z")
Guys, Steve Smith (NYG) was a rookie in 2007. If that list is from last year, they included a USC Trojan. > [@Least Original User Name Ever](#): > > To further nitpick, Dre Bly wasn’t the superstud that he ended up being when he was picked up in free agency by the Lions. No True Scotsman. You’re right that DeAngelo Hall isn’t a free agent; the Falcons are shopping him around. Explain to me again how there is a meaningful distinction between trading a player away and losing him to free agency? ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-offseason-discussion-up-to-but-not-including-draft/438702/294 "2008-03-09T15:57:09Z")
It’s a meaningful distinction because it’s the distinction I drew when I first started talking about it. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-offseason-discussion-up-to-but-not-including-draft/438702/295 "2008-03-09T15:59:31Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] It’s a meaningful distinction because it’s the distinction I drew when I first started talking about it. [/QUOTE] I’m asking why you made it in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![EsotericEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e274bd/32.png) [@EsotericEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EsotericEnigma)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-offseason-discussion-up-to-but-not-including-draft/438702/296 "2008-03-09T16:01:45Z")
For what it’s worth, some Insider rankings are updated for this season (free agents). Asante Samuel is an 85 and Randy Moss is a 93. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-offseason-discussion-up-to-but-not-including-draft/438702/297 "2008-03-09T16:03:31Z")
Because I’m aware that Champ Bailey was traded for Clinton Portis because Reverend I-Don’t-give-a-Care didn’t like his contract. I also knew that Dre Bly was traded for Tatum Bell and George Foster. Those two are franchise cornerbacks. Therefore, they’re out of the discussion. They never hit the open market. (Bly excepted, but that was before he became a turnover machine). Not only that but the discussion was originally about franchise tackles hitting free agency (Willie Roaf went from the Saints to the Chiefs…I forgot about him) and I then extended/likened it to super-studly cornerbacks hitting free agency. ---
**Author:** ![EsotericEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e274bd/32.png) [@EsotericEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EsotericEnigma)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-offseason-discussion-up-to-but-not-including-draft/438702/298 "2008-03-09T16:33:28Z")
I don’t understand what the big deal about this “franchise players don’t typically move in free agency” argument is about. Is it such a surprise that really important players stay put? There’s your definition of “franchise player” by the way, a player that’s so valuable and important the franchise won’t let him go. So, yeah, franchise players don’t typically move. 😃 There’s a reason that Guards, Outside linebackers, cornerbacks, and the like are moved in free agency; those positions aren’t among the most important on the football field and are easily replaced. Really, really good left tackles, quarterbacks, running backs, and middle linebackers don’t typically move, because they’re too important to the team. Once you get one, you keep him. Another important thing to note is that really good players of all positions don’t move often, as you would expect. Scouts Inc’s own free agent rankings (flawed as they are) only list a single 90+ and only 9 80+ players total for this season, of all the free agents in the NFL. And just because a player is a free agent doesn’t mean anything; of those 10 players ranked 80 or above, 8 have re-signed with their former team. As in, they aren’t moving either. Good players stay put, really good players at an important position almost never move. And in those rare instances they do, it probably doesn’t have anything to do with what happens on the field (more like, money issues because of the cap, personality issues or conflicts, or age). I don’t think any of this is anything but obvious. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-offseason-discussion-up-to-but-not-including-draft/438702/299 "2008-03-09T17:02:39Z")
[QUOTE=EsotericEnigma] Is it such a surprise that really important players stay put? There’s your definition of “franchise player” by the way, a player that’s so valuable and important the franchise won’t let him go. So, yeah, franchise players don’t typically move. 😃 [/QUOTE] That was my original throw-away point. > [@Least Original User Name Ever](#): > > Not only that but the discussion was originally about franchise tackles hitting free agency (Willie Roaf went from the Saints to the Chiefs…I forgot about him) and I then extended/likened it to super-studly cornerbacks hitting free agency. Super-studly cornerbacks change teams all the time, unlike franchise left tackles, so you were wrong to extend your point to cornerbacks. To arbitrarily say that trades don’t count as leaving a team really honestly strikes me as bizarre. That’s why I’m having trouble letting this go. Also, this… > [@](#): > > Because I’m aware that Champ Bailey was traded for Clinton Portis because Reverend I-Don’t-give-a-Care didn’t like his contract. I also knew that Dre Bly was traded for Tatum Bell and George Foster. Those two are franchise cornerbacks. Therefore, they’re out of the discussion. They never hit the open market. (Bly excepted, but that was before he became a turnover machine). …is a textbook example of the No True Scotsman fallacy. SIX TIMEOUTS BEFORE THIS SHITTY FUCKING BOARD WAS ABLE TO ACCEPT THIS POST ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-offseason-discussion-up-to-but-not-including-draft/438702/300 "2008-03-09T17:37:22Z")
[QUOTE=Ellis Dee] That was my original throw-away point.Super-studly cornerbacks change teams all the time, unlike franchise left tackles, so you were wrong to extend your point to cornerbacks. To arbitrarily say that trades don’t count as leaving a team really honestly strikes me as bizarre. That’s why I’m having trouble letting this go. Also, this…is a textbook example of the No True Scotsman fallacy. SIX TIMEOUTS BEFORE THIS SHITTY FUCKING BOARD WAS ABLE TO ACCEPT THIS POST [/QUOTE] I’m not saying that trades don’t equal leaving a team. I’m saying that trades don’t equal leaving a team via free agency. I chose to limit the discussion to cornerbacks that left in free agency. That’s fine. Call it whatever you want. Believe it, don’t believe it, that’s great. Can we get back to talking about football now? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-offseason-discussion-up-to-but-not-including-draft/438702.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-offseason-discussion-up-to-but-not-including-draft/438702.md?page=16)