# NFL Players of the Decade **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 28, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-players-of-the-decade/555383 "2010-09-28T19:24:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-players-of-the-decade/555383/41 "2010-09-30T16:54:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I had totally forgotten about Warner. Not that I’d give him the nod, but he deserves lip service, at least. Anyone who could lead the Arizona Cardinals, much less the St. Louis Rams, to the Super Bowl deserves major consideration! 😃 Here’s an All-Decade list: > **[NFL 2000s All-Decade Team](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Football_League_2000s_All-Decade_Team)** > > The NFL 2000s All-Decade Team is composed of outstanding performers in the National Football League in the ten years spanning 2000–2009. Only a player or coach's performance in the 2000s is used as criteria for voting. > The full team was announced on January 31, 2010 during the pregame show for the 2010 Pro Bowl. The names of the twelve all-decade honorees who participated in the 2010 Pro Bowl had been released earlier in the week. > Willie Roaf, Larry Allen, and Warren Sapp were previously name... ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-players-of-the-decade/555383/42 "2010-09-30T16:58:01Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > Wayne, by the way: > > 75 receptions, 1044 yards, 7 TD, 4-time Pro Bowler, one ring, one Super Bowl appearance, Peyton Manning his entire career. Didn’t Wayne have two Superbowl appearances? ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-players-of-the-decade/555383/43 "2010-09-30T17:05:12Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > > [@storyteller0910](#): > > > > Wayne, by the way: > > > > 75 receptions, 1044 yards, 7 TD, 4-time Pro Bowler, one ring, one Super Bowl appearance, Peyton Manning his entire career. > > Didn’t Wayne have two Superbowl appearances? Yup. Whoops. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-players-of-the-decade/555383/44 "2010-09-30T17:12:02Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > Here’s an All-Decade list: > [NFL 2000s All-Decade Team - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Football_League_2000s_All-Decade_Team) I’m quietly disturbed that my team tracked the Hall of Fame Committee’s so closely. Those guys are _idiots._ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-players-of-the-decade/555383/45 "2010-09-30T20:18:13Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > This sort of lazy argument always drives me up a wall. It’s convenient to defined “important games” however you want, and then accuse a given player of choking away the important games - you’ve managed to cheerfully dismiss all of the objectively important games the player managed to win as not among the “important games,” so hey, of course you’re left with a guy who can’t win the important ones - to you, the only important ones are the ones he lost! You’re making the same mistake as many in assessing Manning. You’re pointing to his huge yards and TD numbers versus Roethlisberger as if this was an apples to apples comp. The fact is, the Colts surround Manning with top notch offensive talent. He and Brady have always had better receiving talent around them. And Manning has actually been blessed with great running backs too. Pittsburgh doesn’t normally have the same offensive philosophy. Ben has proven, though, that he could easily put up Manning/Brady-type numbers if asked. Just look at his '07 and '09 seasons. In 6 full seasons, BB already has 2 years of a 100+ rating. Manning only has 3 years out of 12. And Brady? Only 1 of 8. 95+ rating? BB- 4 of 6 years; PM- 7 of 12; TB- 2 of 8 Career Yards per attempt: BB: 8.01; PM: 7.68; TB: 7.32 Career Int/Attempt: BB: 3.3%; PM: 2.7%; TB: 2.3% Completion %: 63%; 65%; 63% Plus, BB is a far better runner, scrambler and tackler than either of the others. I have to ask, what makes you think that Peyton is better then Big Ben even in the regular reason? He’s not. He just throws the ball more and has better receivers and O-linemen. He’s also always had good pass-catching RB’s as an outlet. BB never even had that. > [@](#): > > Let’s actually look at the facts. We just did. > [@](#): > > What’s the important games? Well, clearly, the Super Bowl. In the decade, there are only two quarterbacks with _more_ wins in that particular big game: Roethlisberger and Brady. OK, fine. I’ll accept that. But let’s look closer. Did he “choke away” the game last year against the Saints? Yes, he did. BB and TB both probably drive and score, just like Joe Montana, Kurt Warner and other championship caliber QB’s. PM throws a very predictable INT. He was due. Just like Favre, you know it’s coming and you know it’s going to be a big one. > [@](#): > > His performance (31-45 for 333 yards, 1 TD and 1 INT) is better than a lot of Super Bowl _winning_ quarterbacks have managed in the last decade, but let’s let that pass. The INT was big, the team scored only 17 points. Uh yeah, kind of a microcosm of his career. Good 1st half; winning at the half; outplaying the other QB; F- it up at the end = Best team; best QB; best record; BAD Playoffs. > [@](#): > > OK. Let’s keep going. > > Manning’s made it to two Super Bowls, which means he has won two conference championships. Were those “important” games? In the first, the Colts played the New England Patriots. Manning threw for 349 yards on 27-47 passing, bringing his team back from a 21-6 halftime deficit against a team that had finished 12-4. Was that a choke? How about his second conference championship win - scoring 30 points on 26-39, 377, 3 TD - against the best defense in the league. Choke or not a choke? > > Overall playoffs (Super Bowls and conference championships included): **9-9** (very strictly speaking, one of those losses came prior to the decade in question). So by what definition has Peyton Manning “consistently choked away the important games?” Seriously? You do realize that you can lose a maximum of 1 game in the playoffs every year. This comment actually destroys any argument that PM is even an average QB in the playoffs. He’s well below average, approaching Romo territiry. > [@](#): > > Now, Roethlisberger has an incredibly impressive playoff record: 8-2. But he’s also missed the playoffs twice as a starter. That counts, too! Sure, but that’s more indicative of a bad team with any QB, good or bad. The Colts do great in the regular season and then lose in the playoffs. Chokes aren’t only about individual games; they’re also about expectations vs. results. There isn’t a QB in the NFL who falls below PM in this category. > [@](#): > > Manning has more playoff losses than Roethlisberger at least in part because he has put his team _in_ the playoffs far more often that Roethlisberger; the Colts haven’t missed the playoffs under Manning in eight _years_. More precisely, his upper management, coaching staff and teammates consistently put him in a position to lead them to a championship. But he just isn’t good enough to help the team accomplish its goal. > [@](#): > > And all of this is considering wins with no context at all. Take a look at some of those Manning playoff losses: 2007 to the Chargers (400+ yards, 3 TD, 2 INT); 2008 to the Chargers again (300+ yards, 1 TD, 0 INT); 2005 to the Steelers (22-38, 290, 1 TD, 0 INT, outplaying Roethlisberger [14-24, 197, 2/1]). These are not the performances of a QB choking away big games; they’re performances of a great QB on a team that was, as a whole, not quite better than its opponent that day). > > There were three huge stinkers: 2002 vs. the Jets and 2003 and 2004 both against the Patriots. So you’re saying his choke percentage is 25%? That’s a lot higher than BB and TB. You also left out others. > [@](#): > > Roethlisberger? > > Well, not counting the two seasons when he couldn’t even win enough games to _make_ the playoffs (last season was clearly not his doing; the first time, though, in 2006, he was very bad), he’s lost twice in the postseason. In 2004, he was quite bad against the Patriots (14-24, 226, 2 TD, 3 INT, with that last TD coming in obvious garbage time). In 2007 he played… reasonably well, actually, in losing to the Jaguars (but he threw three picks, one returned for a TD). Were either of those performances “choking away” an important game? [/quote] I suppose in the same way that Mariano Rivera choked against Arizona. But with proven champions that have demonstrated being clutch and coming through in important situations, you overlook the odd bad game. Manning has _never_ had a single great post-season. He’s very lucky that his one championship was on a sloppy field where the fewest random miscues won his team the game. Point is, the Colts would actually have multiple championships with other QBs. > [@](#): > > As far as I can see, there is no way to argue for Roethlisberger’s superiority on the basis of this information. Manning has won plenty of important games - the ones in the regular season count, you know, especially when you don’t win enough to make the playoffs at all - and the difference between the two of them in rings comes down to a game where Roethlisberger played horribly and was carried to victory by a good defense (and, let’s face it, the referees). Manning’s regular season performances eclipse Ben’s by miles and miles and miles. When you make the playoffs every damn year, you’re going to have some stinkers mixed in. Correction. Manning puts up stinkers just about every year. > [@](#): > > Conclusion: > > Ben is, to this point, a solid-to-above-average quarterback. There are a dozen quarterbacks active right now who would have won as much - or more - in the same situation in Pittsburgh. There aren’t ten quarterbacks _ever_ who could sustain the sort of excellence Manning has in Indianapolis, over more than a decade and _including_ nine playoff wins and two Super Bowl appearances. Your conclusion basically disregards all objectivity. BB is by far a better QB than Manning. The only reason that Manning’s stats are even close to BB’s is because of the talent around him. > [@](#): > > Manning’s my choice here. Followed by Brady. Followed by Kurt Warner, frankly. Roethlisberger gets lumped in with Eli, McNabb, and Favre in the next tier. Well, you do have the majority of “experts” on your side. I’ll give you that. But in reality, if you put BB on the Colts over the past 6 years, they have multiple championships. PM on the Steelers? They’d have none. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-players-of-the-decade/555383/46 "2010-09-30T20:33:39Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > The fact is, the Colts surround Manning with top notch offensive talent. He and Brady have always had better receiving talent around them. This is so insanely, stupidly, laughably wrong that I don’t believe you are actually arguing in good faith. Tom Brady has always had top-notch receiving talent around him? What color is the sky in your world? Take off the rose colored glasses and come join the rest of us in reality. > [@](#): > > Point is, the Colts would actually have multiple championships with other QBs. > […] > But in reality, if you put BB on the Colts over the past 6 years, they have multiple championships. PM on the Steelers? They’d have none. The Colts wouldn’t crack .500 without Peyton Manning, and I’m a Peyton-hater. Give me Tom Brady in these debates every time. But you’re just so amazingly wrong as to boggle the mind. Ben on the Colts would be lucky to have gotten a Wildcard berth once in his career, only to quickly get curb-stomped by whomever he faced. Also, don’t paint the 2004 season as one bad playoff game by Ben. He sucked against the Jets, but lucked into a win when the Jets kicker choked that game away. He followed up that shitty performance with another shitty one the next week, only that time the other team didn’t choke the game away. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-players-of-the-decade/555383/47 "2010-09-30T20:39:27Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > \ > But in reality, if you put BB on the Colts over the past 6 years, they have multiple championships. PM on the Steelers? They’d have none. This is absolutely crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-players-of-the-decade/555383/48 "2010-09-30T20:47:29Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > > [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > > > The fact is, the Colts surround Manning with top notch offensive talent. He and Brady have always had better receiving talent around them. > > This is so insanely, stupidly, laughably wrong that I don’t believe you are actually arguing in good faith. Tom Brady has always had top-notch receiving talent around him? What color is the sky in your world? Take off the rose colored glasses and come join the rest of us in reality. Or Manning for that matter. The Colts of the last couple years have shown that Manning can have success with pretty much anyone out there. Or you think Blair White is just making Manning look good? Oh and Holmes, Ward, Bettis? The Steelers have certainly had their share of offensive talent too. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-players-of-the-decade/555383/49 "2010-09-30T21:47:53Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Ben choked his first Superbowl as badly as Peyton ever choked any playoff game. Yes, he did. But his team won. And just to show that I am not entirely a homer, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady (of a few years ago, anyway) are both objectively better quarterbacks than Ben. But Ben is undoubtedly in my mind a top-5 quarterback in the NFL and is pretty much perfect for the Steelers. He can throw, he can run, he can take hits, and he makes things happen where there often is nothing. Behind the Steelers offensive line Peyton Manning and Tom Brady would spend most of their time on crutches if they didn’t throw the ball away. They’re different types of quarterbacks on different kinds of teams. > [@](#): > > It was just fortunate for Ben that the Steelers had a great team around him and that they faced the scrotty Seahawks. Seahawks and Cardinals, what a legacy! And while you’re by all appearances cracking on that legacy, you will note that the other 15 NFC teams didn’t make the Super Bowl those years. Including the Giants, that indomitable juggernaut. How did they do those years again? The Steelers beat the teams they were given. Sorry if that doesn’t impress you. I find it interesting that the Steelers have had one of the best, if not the best, defense every year of the last decade yet only Polamalu makes the list? No consideration for Silverback or Big Snack? ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-players-of-the-decade/555383/50 "2010-09-30T22:21:05Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > More precisely, his upper management, coaching staff and teammates consistently put him in a position to lead them to a championship. But he just isn’t good enough to help the team accomplish its goal. In other words, everything positive the Colts accomplish is due to someone other than Peyton Manning, and everything negative that happens to the team is his fault. I could go point by point, but why bother? You started from the conclusion you wanted and tortured up an argument to support it. You’re welcome to it, I suppose, but it’s objectively fantasyland and I can’t justify spending time on it. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-players-of-the-decade/555383/51 "2010-09-30T22:29:11Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Yes, he did. But his team won. And just to show that I am not entirely a homer, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady (of a few years ago, anyway) are both objectively better quarterbacks than Ben. But Ben is undoubtedly in my mind a top-5 quarterback in the NFL and is pretty much perfect for the Steelers. I don’t know about top 5. Brady, Manning, Brees, and Rodgers are all (in my opinion) definitively better, and there are at least two or three others where there’s a case. But that’s quibbling. He’s definitely in the top ten, and anything more precise then that is really just a matter of subjective opinion. > [@](#): > > And while you’re by all appearances cracking on that legacy, you will note that the other 15 NFC teams didn’t make the Super Bowl those years. Including the Giants, that indomitable juggernaut. How did they do those years again? > > The Steelers beat the teams they were given. Sorry if that doesn’t impress you. In fairness, it’s not the _Steelers_ that don’t impress. The Steelers are extremely impressive. Much as I hate to admit it, they’re the most successful NFL franchise of all time. I expect that they will win the Super Bowl this year. Their wins were well deserved, reflecting of an overall organization that was terrific. It’s just that Ben Roethlisberger, specifically, doesn’t impress. The mere fact that he happened to be on the teams when they won doesn’t make him automatically great. > [@](#): > > I find it interesting that the Steelers have had one of the best, if not the best, defense every year of the last decade yet only Polamalu makes the list? No consideration for Silverback or Big Snack? Or Joey Porter, no? Gotta be a case there. Hampton’s probably a nonstarter because of the existence of Warren Sapp and Williams, but Porter and Harrison have good cases. (I was going to mention Rod Woodson, but was shocked to discover on Google that he last played for the Steelers in 1996! I feel, suddenly, a lot older than when I opened this thread). ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-players-of-the-decade/555383/52 "2010-09-30T22:32:16Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > And while you’re by all appearances cracking on that legacy, you will note that the other 15 NFC teams didn’t make the Super Bowl those years. Including the Giants, that indomitable juggernaut. How did they do those years again? One and done in the playoffs both years, including the Burress gun year when they had the #1 seed in the conference. Ouch. Come on, even you have to admit that the foes you vanquished in your recent Superbowls pale in comparison to what you had in the 70s. It’s not a matter of it being anyone’s fault that neither the Seahawks nor Cardinals have any tradition of winning whatsoever. > [@storyteller0910](#): > > It’s just that Ben Roethlisberger, specifically, doesn’t impress. The mere fact that he happened to be on the teams when they won doesn’t make him automatically great. That’s unfair. Ben impressed the hell out of me in the win over the Cardinals. He was truly great that game, or at least that’s how I remember it. Maybe I have that last drive burned into my memory, but he had two career-defining plays in that last-minute game-winning drive. To me, that’s impressive as hell. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-players-of-the-decade/555383/53 "2010-09-30T22:40:00Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > Much as I hate to admit it, they’re the most successful NFL ranchise of all time. No, they aren’t. It goes Packers, then Bears, then I think Giants. Whenever you invoke “all time” you have to remember that the Steelers’ first 40 years were full of suck. They’re old enough to be considered a founding franchise but didn’t win their first championship until the Superbowl era. And cynics might say that the Steelers of the 70s had the advantage of being an NFL team in the AFL conference, so an NFL fan could say they benefited from being able to beat up on scrubs. I’m not sure that I would make that argument, but it could be made. EDIT: I though the Giants at 3 seemed too high. It goes Packers (12), Bears (9), Browns (8), Giants (7), then Steelers (6). [Cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_National_Football_League_Championship#Championships_by_franchise). (I’m a little dubious on four of the Browns titles, though. Not sure how much weight to give the AAFC Championships.) ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-players-of-the-decade/555383/54 "2010-09-30T22:52:35Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Ben impressed the hell out of me in the win over the Cardinals. He was truly great that game, or at least that’s how I remember it. Maybe I have that last drive burned into my memory, but he had two career-defining plays in that last-minute game-winning drive. To me, that’s impressive as hell. There’s impressed and there’s _impressed_. If the only discussion here is “Is Ben Roethlisberger a good quarterback,” I’m not sure there’s any debate to be had. Of course he is. The question is whether he belongs in the same class as Brady and Manning, and the point is that however good the Steelers have been, Roethlisberger has not (yet) proven himself to be in that conversation. And point taken about the Steelers vs. everyone else. So how about: The Steelers are the most successful franchise of the Super Bowl era? Better? ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-players-of-the-decade/555383/55 "2010-09-30T23:09:25Z")
Agreed. I took issue with the assertion that Ben _doesn’t_ impress. And yep, greatest franchise of the Superbowl era, no doubt. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-players-of-the-decade/555383/56 "2010-10-01T00:27:51Z")
By the Super Bowl definition, even I, a diehard Bengals fan that resolutely hates the Steelers (although I was a fan as a kid, along with the Chargers and Buccaneers of the dawn of aerial football…nothing like the graceful passing game with Fouts, Bradshaw, Williams throwing to Stallworth, Swann, Jimmy Giles, Kellen Winslow the elder, etc) are the best. Even if there’s a cloud of uncertainty surrounding those 70’s Steelers teams with the allegations of steroid use, and a strange preponderance of ex-Steelers that died young or went insane or committed suicide. They have won the most Super Bowls, which to some, is the only thing that matters and catapults players with pedestrian stats overall into great players, which isn’t always true. I will say this about the Steelers: they are a TEAM. Manning wouldn’t work as a Steelers QB. The Steelers don’t play cerebral football. They never had (or needed) a QB like Manning. The Colts are built around Manning and Ben could NEVER do the things Peyton does commanding that offense. The Steelers have staked their reputation on strong defense and a run game, for the most part. The Rooney’s have been an admired ownership conglomerate for a long time. I am jealous of their success being a fan of a team in their division that used to be subjugated to the will to win of the Steelers year after year. That said, this “Steeler Way” has been exposed to a degree as a bunch of malarkey. Not all players are as interchangeable as the ownership thinks. Under that mantra, Ben would have been released. But, they also want to win. I don’t know…I hate the goddamn Steelers but I give them their grudging respect. They win a lot of games and Super Bowls _without_ much in the way of true statistical star power. Mostly due to defense. But the Bengals are going to win the division and sweep the Stealers again this season. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-players-of-the-decade/555383/57 "2010-10-01T00:31:21Z")
Imho: Ben: You’ve seen what happens when the defense plays poorly. Ben can’t win without help, and from this year, you can see they don’t need Ben. If they beat the Ravens this week, it’ll be a lock: you can’t point at Pittsburgh’s record and say it was because of Ben. Regardless of whether ben plays well or poorly, they only win when the defense shows up. Brady: Before Spygate, it was always assumed that Brady had some sort of supernatural spider-sense to figure out which one of below average receivers was open. After spygate, we still don’t know for sure thanks to getting Moss for essentially a handful of magic beans. After that, he was injured for an entire year. This year, he looks very, very mortal. I think at the end of this season, we’ll get a much better sense of how much Spygate contributed to the success of the Belichek patriots. Manning: Unlike the two above, Manning has won whether the defense has shown up or not. There are countless examples of Manning getting confused by the defense hiding their coverages and then making near perfect adjustments after halftime. Nowadays, Manning makes adjustments in the same drive. I think it’s also clear that he hasn’t had the greatest talent around him. It’s quite possible to argue that Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, or Marvin Harrison (and especially Brandon Stokely or Austin Collie) would not have had nearly as good careers without him. When he plays poorly, they lose. When he plays well, they win. ---
**Author:** ![Jman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jman/32/4416_2.png) [@Jman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jman)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-players-of-the-decade/555383/58 "2010-10-01T02:22:07Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > Imho: > > Ben: You’ve seen what happens when the defense plays poorly. Ben can’t win without help, and from this year, you can see they don’t need Ben. If they beat the Ravens this week, it’ll be a lock: you can’t point at Pittsburgh’s record and say it was because of Ben. Regardless of whether ben plays well or poorly, they only win when the defense shows up. You mean how the defense blew a huge lead in Super Bowl XLIII and Ben did nothing but lead them on a 90 yard drive with 2 minutes left to win the Lombardi? The man has three perfect passer rating games (tied with Manning), a 500 yard passing game (one of only 10 ever), the most 4th quarter comebacks of any active QB, the highest rookie passer rating in NFL history, one of the top career passer ratings in existence, but you’re right. He only wins when the defense shows up. that must be why he won more games in his first five years than anyone else in their first five. ever. (of course the defense helped on that one, but it wasn’t all them). Look. Manning and Brady are better QBs, but Ben belongs in the conversation, even if he is a slimeball. I mean, looking at the way he plays and how clutch he is in big games and with his comeback ability, he’s basically this generations John Elway (on the field). ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-players-of-the-decade/555383/59 "2010-10-01T02:32:58Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Even if there’s a cloud of uncertainty surrounding those 70’s Steelers teams with the allegations of steroid use, and a strange preponderance of ex-Steelers that died young or went insane or committed suicide. The allegations are true. Fortunately for me, they are true league-wide, so it makes no nevermind. They gained no competitive advantage because everybody was on the juice, speed, cocaine, etc. I trust you don’t doubt that. > [@](#): > > They have won the most Super Bowls, which to some, is the only thing that matters and catapults players with pedestrian stats overall into great players, which isn’t always true. There is no “I” in “team”. They were better than the sum of their parts. That said, it is a Steelers hater indeed that would argue that anybody they have in the Hall of Fame doesn’t belong there and that there are yet players from the '70s Steel Curtain that still do belong there but will never have a chance because there are “too many” already (Donnie Shell waits for your call, as does Andy Russell, Canton). > [@](#): > > I will say this about the Steelers: they are a TEAM. This is exactly so. > [@](#): > > That said, this “Steeler Way” has been exposed to a degree as a bunch of malarkey. Not all players are as interchangeable as the ownership thinks. Under that mantra, Ben would have been released. But, they also want to win. As point of fact, they are doing quite well without him. And don’t try to tell me that they haven’t played anybody. I do agree with you that some people are irreplaceable (Polamalu), but they still play well even with the handicaps. But for a few missed field goals they make the playoffs last year. Yeah, I know, if my mom had balls…but there it is. > [@](#): > > But the Bengals are going to win the division and sweep the Stealers again this season. > 😃 Uh huh. Go donate some of your hard-earned money to Ochocinco’s whores, whydontcha? Either that or you can put it on the table and give it to me, in which case it would be better spent. How did this thread turn into a referendum on the Steelers, by the way? It wasn’t my fault, and I have a thread somewhat custom made for this very purpose, if you catch my meaning. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-players-of-the-decade/555383/60 "2010-10-01T02:57:38Z")
It wasn’t you. It was the lunatic ravings about Ben being on the level of Peyton and Brady. On a side note, everyone touting Ben’s passer rating should calm down with that. It is a statistical truth that the fewer pass attempts you have in a game the higher your passer rating. I ran that analysis years ago on the entire pro-football-reference database in a debate with **Omni** about Big Ben. I kept pointing to his passer rating, and Omni kept saying that was because he barely ever threw the ball. I thought that was a crazy argument so I ran the numbers on all QBs in the entire database and sure enough, much to my surprise, the fewer pass attempts in a game, the higher the passer rating. Ben spent years throwing fewer than 20 attempts in a game, so his passer rating is artificially inflated. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-players-of-the-decade/555383.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-players-of-the-decade/555383.md?page=4)