# NFL Playoffs Division Weekend **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 9, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-playoffs-division-weekend/709426 "2015-01-09T19:21:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![BigDadWolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@BigDadWolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigDadWolf)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-playoffs-division-weekend/709426/101 "2015-01-12T13:47:22Z")
What I don’t understand is why Bryant even risked the ball touching the ground on a fourth down catch. On a fourth down play the only concern should be getting the first down. Once he caught the ball he should have brought it in and cradled it in such a way that it could not come in contact with the ground or be knocked out or anything else that could result in a incompletion. It not as if it was a last second play or fourth and goal that necessitated that he score. I understand his instinct it to go for the TD but he should have known the circumstance required a incontrovertible reception. If he had focused on making the catch the Cowboys would have almost certainly scored and setup a great final four minutes of what had been a great game. ---
**Author:** ![Laggard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Laggard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laggard)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-playoffs-division-weekend/709426/102 "2015-01-12T13:53:28Z")
Sadly a reversed call is overshadowing an amazing performance by a QB that is close to being a first ballot hall of fame inductee. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-playoffs-division-weekend/709426/103 "2015-01-12T14:20:42Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Now if you can exactly define the difference between the common diving situation, and the Dez situation … Exactly may be hard, as you imply. But I think the average fan has the sense that if you clearly establish possession of a pass (which can obviously happen as you are falling to the ground) then subsequent contact with the ground should be covered by the same rules as apply to a runner carrying the ball. I may be wrong, but I’m pretty sure I’ve seen cases where a receiver who did approximately the same job as Dez here gaining possession of the pass was then hit while falling to the ground, knocking the ball loose - which was ruled a fumble, with minimal controversy. If he did enough to become subject to fumbling the ball, subsequent contact with the ground should not yield an incomplete pass. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-playoffs-division-weekend/709426/104 "2015-01-12T14:25:37Z")
> [@BigDadWolf](#): > > What I don’t understand is why Bryant even risked the ball touching the ground on a fourth down catch. You’re clearly right - and events have proved - that he should have concentrated on the catch. But with the goal line (and a late lead in a big game) a couple of feet away, it’s got to be unusual for any serious football player not to be tempted to try for the score. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-playoffs-division-weekend/709426/105 "2015-01-12T14:34:47Z")
Esp a show boater like Dez ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-playoffs-division-weekend/709426/106 "2015-01-12T14:48:19Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Exactly may be hard, as you imply. > > But I think the average fan has the sense that if you clearly establish possession of a pass (which can obviously happen as you are falling to the ground) then subsequent contact with the ground should be covered by the same rules as apply to a runner carrying the ball. I disagree that the average fan would actually have that sense in most situations. Again, think of a receiver diving for a ball so he’s horizontal when he catches it. The ball is clearly in his hands as he falls but when he hits the ground the ball pops out. The average fan – and I bet you too – would call that an incomplete pass. But your rule would make that a completion and a fumble. I think most fans would think that’s the wrong outcome. And that situation happens a lot more than a Dez/Calvin situation where the rule seems imperfect. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-playoffs-division-weekend/709426/107 "2015-01-12T14:50:16Z")
> [@BigDadWolf](#): > > What I don’t understand is why Bryant even risked the ball touching the ground on a fourth down catch. On a fourth down play the only concern should be getting the first down. Once he caught the ball he should have brought it in and cradled it in such a way that it could not come in contact with the ground or be knocked out or anything else that could result in a incompletion. It not as if it was a last second play or fourth and goal that necessitated that he score. I can get behind this. His only thought should have been to secure that ball with both hands, bring it into his body, and land with two feet inbounds, period. I would have been the smartest thing to do and result in a first and goal at the one. Dallas would have had no problem punching it in with 3-4 attempts. Instead he opted for what he did which was the risk. He took the risk and he got bit for it. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-playoffs-division-weekend/709426/108 "2015-01-12T15:29:39Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > … think of a receiver diving for a ball so he’s horizontal when he catches it. The ball is clearly in his hands as he falls but when he hits the ground the ball pops out. I don’t think “ball is clearly in his hands” necessarily equates to “has clearly established possession”. There should be some obligation to show control of the ball - to do something with it. Isn’t that what the “football move” rule is trying for? ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-playoffs-division-weekend/709426/109 "2015-01-12T15:51:32Z")
My main issue with the rule (I’m glad I normally have slightly low blood pressure for my age, because watching the Calvin Johnson non-catch again just caused it to shoot through the roof, again, and I’m not even a Lions fan) is that one sancrosanct principle is that the play is invariably OVER the instant that the player is down, and NOTHING that happens after that instant can affect the outcome of the play; in both cases their asses hit the ground before the ball came loose, so they’re down and it’s a catch, right? [CJ had more of a case in his instance I will admit.] Except that, with this rule, events that happen after the player would normally be ruled down affect the outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Monocracy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monocracy/32/4493_2.png) [@Monocracy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monocracy)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-playoffs-division-weekend/709426/110 "2015-01-12T15:53:51Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So what was up with the Patriots kneeling down on the ball at the end of the game? As we saw, it wasn’t the very end of the game - the Patriots ended up turning the ball back over to the Ravens with fourteen seconds on the clock. > > It ended up not being a factor because the Patriots were able to knock the ball down in the endzone. But if could easily have gone the other way and the Ravens would have won the game. > > So why did Belichick and Brady give them the opportunity for a last-second win? Why didn’t they run some running plays that would have burn up the clock and prevented a turnover? It was definitely unconventional. Normally, a team would run three running plays up the middle in that situation. I don’t think those three plays would have burned up the 14 seconds that remained (maybe another 6 seconds gone), so the Pats still would’ve had to make the most dangerous remaining play, a punt. I guess Belicheck decided that a few extra seconds on the clock was better than six additional chances for a fumble (QB hands off ball to RB, RB gets tackled). The Raven’s punt returner also helped out the Pats by not calling a fair catch and burning more precious time off the clock. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-playoffs-division-weekend/709426/111 "2015-01-12T16:02:19Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > I don’t think “ball is clearly in his hands” necessarily equates to “has clearly established possession”. There should be some obligation to show control of the ball - to do something with it. Isn’t that what the “football move” rule is trying for? I guess that’s where it looks gray to me. It seemed to me that the lunge towards the goal line was a “football move.” But I can also see an interpretation where that’s all just one continuous line of action, rather than two distinct ones of catch & lunge. (Or is that lunge not considered a “football move” or is it not clear enough to be a lunge?) That’s why I thought the call was going to stand–there wasn’t enough evidence there, to me, to clearly overturn it. Had the call on the field been incomplete, I would have expected that to stand as well. On the other hand, given the situation, Bryant should just have had possession and a clean catch first and foremost on his mind and reigned that ball in. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-playoffs-division-weekend/709426/112 "2015-01-12T16:07:59Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > I don’t think “ball is clearly in his hands” necessarily equates to “has clearly established possession”. There should be some obligation to show control of the ball - to do something with it. Isn’t that what the “football move” rule is trying for? OK, so the the receiver dives, and as they’re still falling pulls the ball into his chest – a ‘football move’ right?-- but still it pops out when he hits the ground. I think the average fan still sees that as an incomplete. And, contrariwise, now think of the diving catch where the ball doesn’t pop out: the receiver lays out horizontally and gets the ball in between his hands, but when he hits the group the ball stays in his hands. He’s then immediately touched by a defender as he’s lying on the ground, but before he can stand up and toss the ball to a referee a second defender comes along and rips the ball out of his hands. What’s the ‘right’ outcome here, and how would it be called with a rule requiring a football move to establish possession? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-playoffs-division-weekend/709426/113 "2015-01-12T16:10:51Z")
> [@Monocracy](#): > > I guess Belicheck decided that a few extra seconds on the clock was better than six additional chances for a fumble (QB hands off ball to RB, RB gets tackled). The Raven’s punt returner also helped out the Pats by not calling a fair catch and burning more precious time off the clock. Yeah, I thought that was a poor choice of clock management there at the end. I initially thought the Patriots miscounted the number of seconds remaining but that seem unlikely. There was 14 seconds on the clock when they punted and the lack of a fair catch certainly made it less of an issue. They could have easily burned 6-10 seconds with three simple running plays up the middle but you know Baltimore would have been trying to attack the ball on each of those plays. ---
**Author:** ![Apocalypso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Apocalypso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apocalypso)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-playoffs-division-weekend/709426/114 "2015-01-12T16:16:08Z")
I don’t have a vested interest in either team, and the outcome meant nothing to me, but… > [@Babini](#): > > The receiver probably knew that by transferring the ball to one hand and stretching it out, he was performing a “football move” (“maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it…”). > > After he caught the ball and secured it, he attempted to stretch it over the goal line. This means that if he lost control of the ball after this stretch attempt, it would be a fumble, not an incomplete catch. Fortunately for the receiver, the ground can’t cause a fumble so in this case it would not have been ruled a fumble. > > Because he took his other hand off and attempted to stretch, the ruling should have been a completed catch. I agree with this. I am not well versed in the rules of futbawl, but think that it should have been a completed catch and down at the 1 yard line. He had a knee down before he stretched and the ball moved, didn’t he? > [@PSXer](#): > > I thought the Bryant catch was rightly incomplete. He was bobbling it when he was catching it and fell on the ground and the ball hit the ground and moved. > > Anyway how bout that Patriots trick play with the receiver declaring himself ineligible. I didn’t even know you could do that. I’ve never seen that before. It’s legal per the league but John Harbaugh sure was mad. Seems to me like bordering on unsportsmanlike deception but deception is how you win games 🙂 > > Also loved the pass TD by Amendola. Hoodie showed all his tricks. I wonder what he has left I disagree, I thought he had control of the football when he went down. It didn’t look to me like he was bobbling it at all until he attempted to stretch across the goal line, and the play should have been over by then. He was down by contact. Then he attempted to stretch across the goal line and that’s the first time I saw the ball moving. If the ball hadn’t moved, it still wouldn’t have been a TD as he was down at the 1. ---
**Author:** ![leftfield6](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leftfield6/32/18780_2.png) [@leftfield6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leftfield6)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-playoffs-division-weekend/709426/115 "2015-01-12T16:28:23Z")
The Dez non-catch, from a guy who hates both teams involved, so no partisan view involved: [ol] [li]Falling to the ground, regardless of whether you are near the goal line or not, is NOT a football move. It’s kind of a gravity thing.[/li][li]He is cupping the ball with his hand on the side, and when he lands, his momentum drives the tip of the ball into the turf.[/li][li]The ball pops loose and then he rolls over. AT THAT MOMENT WHEN IT POPS LOOSE, it’s an incomplete pass.[/li][li]The fact that he recovers the bobble before it hits the ground is an non-issue.[/li][/ol] Once the ball is loose, it’s not a catch. That’s the rule. Not saying I like the rule, or the way it is interpreted, but that IS the rule. I agree that Dez was reaching for the end zone, but that, by definition, does not make it a football move, he was till falling, he was just trying to control where he ended the fall. Ironically, if he had not reached for the goal line, he may have been able to protect the ball better. Maybe he could have completed the catch. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-playoffs-division-weekend/709426/116 "2015-01-12T16:44:40Z")
> [@Monocracy](#): > > The Raven’s punt returner also helped out the Pats by not calling a fair catch and burning more precious time off the clock. I agree. Jones was showboating there and trying to win the game single-handedly rather than making the safer move that was better for the team. We saw the same thing at the end of the Denver game. Thomas should have immediately run out of bounds when he caught that pass in the final seconds and given Manning an opportunity to make one final play. Instead, Thomas ran the clock out looking for a chance to run the ball. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-playoffs-division-weekend/709426/117 "2015-01-12T17:02:06Z")
> [@PSXer](#): > > Anyway how bout that Patriots trick play with the receiver declaring himself ineligible. I didn’t even know you could do that. I’ve never seen that before. It’s legal per the league but John Harbaugh sure was mad. Seems to me like bordering on unsportsmanlike deception but deception is how you win games 🙂 It’s actually pretty common and it’s used in all levels of football. If Harbaugh was claiming that he’s never seen it before, he’s got a very poor memory. It’s deception, or course, in the same way a play action pass is deception. The only thing the Ravens might be able to complain about is that they refs didn’t give them enough notice when the player reported ineligible. But his complaint is with the refs, not the Pats. And it was announced on the PA system. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-playoffs-division-weekend/709426/118 "2015-01-12T17:04:37Z")
> [@leftfield6](#): > > Maybe he could have completed the catch. There is little doubt in my mind he would have. He just ended up trying to do too much. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-playoffs-division-weekend/709426/119 "2015-01-12T17:11:12Z")
Nonetheless, if the Calvin Johnson call was correct (and as a Bears fan, I think the Lions were robbed, but it was probably correct according to the rules as written), then I guess I have to concede that the Bryant one was correct. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-playoffs-division-weekend/709426/120 "2015-01-12T17:45:28Z")
There were three steps I counted after catch of firm ball control of the football with Dez Bryant. Dallas Cowboy’s head coach counted three steps. The ball did get a little wobbly upon contact with the ground. But at what point does that still matter? If he had taken five steps, ten steps, twenty, and still had the ball do the same thing with the catch on the ground, but still maintained possession before all of that time, does all of that get still get called a bad catch? Also, the way I understand pro ball, the receivers are also only required to get two steps in-bounds with ball control before going out of bounds. What if after Bryant had caught it, got his three steps in, before going out of bounds but still hit the ground with the ball and it did the same exact thing, would that have been a legal catch then? Not totally up on the rules, because no sports fanatic here, but I do find it interesting that a fumble can’t be called if impact from the ground caused it; yet a pass that gets caught and receiver has firm control of ball for three steps, but gets a little wobbly only after impact with the ground is then ruled incomplete. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-playoffs-division-weekend/709426.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-playoffs-division-weekend/709426.md?page=7)