# NFL question involving video review, penalties, and the Detroit Lions **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 25, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028 "2012-11-25T00:59:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/1 "2012-11-25T00:59:02Z")
I admit that I watch very little football. And while my understanding of the basic rules is just fine, my understanding of the NFL rulebook is very weak. So it’s possible I’m completely misunderstanding what happened in the Lions game on Thanksgiving Day. But if I’ve got even a part of this right, I really would like to know WHY. Here’s what I think happened. 1. A Houston player ran the ball in for a touchdown. And there was much rejoicing on the Houston bench. 2. But there was not much rejoicing on the Detroit bench, and the coach threw a challenge flag on the field, because he thought the player was legally down long before he reached the end zone and that the play should have been called back. 3. But the coach had forgotten that he isn’t allowed to make a challenge on a scoring play, because video review of these plays is automatic. (How’m I doing so far?) 1. So the officials were forced to penalize the Detroit coach. Which they did, by charging the Lions with a 15-yard penalty (which I assume was carried over to the next set of plays), AND 2. by allowing the original result of the play to stand, giving Houston the touchdown the refs had called at first, EVEN THOUGH… 6)…the video replay showed conclusively that the Houston player had indeed been down very early on in his run. (Right? Kind of? Sort of?) So apparently throwing the flag in error cancels out the correct call. Which seems COMPLETELY BIZARRE, even by the often peculiar rules of the NFL. It’s like saying that if a political candidate who is behind asks for a recount in a state where the vote totals are close enough to trigger an automatic recount, that the requester automatically loses. (And starts the next election cycle with a 15 thousand dollar fundraising deficit, but let that pass…) And what would be the point of that? I can;t think of any situation, sports or otherwise, in which this seems like an even remotely good idea. So, as I said before, first, is my summation more or less correct? And second, who ever thought this was a good rule to begin with? Thank you… ---
**Author:** ![Leonard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@Leonard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leonard)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/2 "2012-11-25T01:52:11Z")
From what I understand you are completely right, and it’s a terrible rule. I didn’t know about it until the other day, and I could barely believe anybody ever approved it. ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/3 "2012-11-25T02:07:29Z")
Absurdly dumb rule. What I think should have happened was the touchdown reversed upon review, followed by a 15 yard penalty for the unnecessary review, which would result in a first down. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/4 "2012-11-25T02:15:19Z")
The theory (as I understand it) is that you cannot benefit from an action that results in a penalty. That doesn’t make it less stupid, but that’s the theory. ---
**Author:** ![Uncle\_Jocko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uncle_jocko/32/2932_2.png) [@Uncle\_Jocko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncle_Jocko)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/5 "2012-11-25T02:16:02Z")
Well, to be fair, the rule is designed to prevent a team from committing a penalty in order to profit from a review. The rule states that if a team commits a penalty that delays the start of the next play, there can be no “booth review” allowed on the play. Otherwise, say this same play happened but the Detroit coach didn’t throw the challenge flag. Then Houston rushed to the line to quickly kick the extra point. Meanwhile, the booth hadn’t yet sent word to the officials that they were taking a second look at the replay. The rule prevents Detroit from committing a penalty, such as jumping offsides, to delay the next play and thereby benefit by a review overturning the touchdown. (They could take a timeout, however.) I think the intent of the rule is a good one. It’s designed to eliminate a team getting a benefit by committing a penalty. But I think extending this to the challenge-flag penalty is probably an unintended consequence. I think the penalty for challenging an “unchallengeable” play is dumb in the first place, but even if that is a penalty, it probably shouldn’t cancel a review. The Detroit coach admitted he knew the rule, that he couldn’t challenge a scoring play, but his emotions goy the best of him and he tossed the flag anyway. What if he actually threw it before the Houston runner scored? It was a challengeable play until the moment he crossed the goal line. If the coach threw the flag before that, he should be allowed to pick it up, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/6 "2012-11-25T02:51:09Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > The theory (as I understand it) is that you cannot benefit from an action that results in a penalty. That’s the way I heard it explained. Schwartz illegally asked for a review and the penalty he paid was losing the review. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/7 "2012-11-25T02:54:09Z")
Question: Suppose in this case the challenge flag had not been thrown by Detroit. The Houston coach sees his player go down from contact, then get up and run for what is (absurdly) ruled a touchdown. It’s obvious that the automatic play review will cause the score to be nullified. So he throws the challenge flag, knowing about the (bizarre) rule that says the play can thus not be reviewed. Touchdown thus stands, at the trivial cost of a 15-yd penalty assessed on the ensuing kickoff. Would this work? ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/8 "2012-11-25T02:59:46Z")
Ya gotta believe some replacement refs were watching this and once more laughing at the assumption that once the regular refs were back on the job, idiotic rulings would cease to be an issue. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/9 "2012-11-25T03:03:16Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Question: > > Suppose in this case the challenge flag had not been thrown by Detroit. The Houston coach sees his player go down from contact, then get up and run for what is (absurdly) ruled a touchdown. It’s obvious that the automatic play review will cause the score to be nullified. So he throws the challenge flag, knowing about the (bizarre) rule that says the play can thus not be reviewed. Touchdown thus stands, at the trivial cost of a 15-yd penalty assessed on the ensuing kickoff. > > Would this work? No, I the rule basically says that you can’t benefit from the penalty. So they would still review it. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/10 "2012-11-25T04:10:30Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > the rule basically says that you can’t benefit from the penalty. It would be possible for Houston to claim they’d benefit from having the score called back - maybe they were seeking to run much more time off the clock on the current drive. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/11 "2012-11-25T07:26:49Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Ya gotta believe some replacement refs were watching this and once more laughing at the assumption that once the regular refs were back on the job, idiotic rulings would cease to be an issue. But this was the correct ruling. The rule itself might be bad, but the refs got it right. Can’t complain about that. ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/12 "2012-11-25T15:39:34Z")
Thanks for the responses. Seems like an incredibly harsh ruling, but I guess if your be-all and end-all is Thou Shalt Not Benefit in Any Way Shape Or Form From a Penalty, not We’d Like to Get Every Call Right, it makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/13 "2012-11-25T18:43:54Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > But this was the correct ruling. The ruling about the touchdown was badly wrong (at least as bad as the ruling that caused such an outcry against the replacement refs). And this egregious & embarrassing error clearly contributed to the challenge flag being (incorrectly) thrown. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/14 "2012-11-25T18:57:44Z")
The NFL doesn’t plan to change the rule in-season. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/15 "2012-11-25T19:00:45Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Ya gotta believe some replacement refs were watching this and once more laughing at the assumption that once the regular refs were back on the job, idiotic rulings would cease to be an issue. The problem here wasn’t the refs, it was the rule itself. The refs correctly interpreted a stupid rule. > [@etv78](#): > > The NFL doesn’t plan to change the rule in-season. They’ve said they probably won’t change the rule during the season, but they have not been that definitive about it. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/16 "2012-11-25T21:43:47Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > But this was the correct ruling. The rule itself might be bad, but the refs got it right. Can’t complain about that. No! The correct ruling is blowing the whistle and calling him down when he was down. We need to stop thinking these refs are the bastion of competency. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/17 "2012-11-25T21:46:56Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > No! The correct ruling is blowing the whistle and calling him down when he was down. We need to stop thinking these refs are the bastion of competency. Oh right - _that_ part. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/18 "2012-11-25T22:52:49Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > No! The correct ruling is blowing the whistle and calling him down when he was down. We need to stop thinking these refs are the bastion of competency. How about you try to call every play in a football game correctly in real time…with a bad angle…running with top notch atheletes…65,000 fans screaming at you…and everybody on the interwebs judging your every decision with the benefit of HD replay from multiple angles. See how you do. Are the refs perfect? No. Do they do a damn good job? You betcha. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/19 "2012-11-26T00:40:44Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > It would be possible for Houston to claim they’d benefit from having the score called back - maybe they were seeking to run much more time off the clock on the current drive. As a hypothetical, it might work (though unlikely). In this specific case, it doesn’t really work, since it was the 3rd quarter and Houston was down by double digits at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Laggard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Laggard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laggard)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/20 "2012-11-26T00:47:43Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > How about you try to call every play in a football game correctly in real time…with a bad angle…running with top notch atheletes…65,000 fans screaming at you…and everybody on the interwebs judging your every decision with the benefit of HD replay from multiple angles. See how you do. > > Are the refs perfect? No. Do they do a damn good job? You betcha. Amen. IMO the replay system is fucked good and needs to be overhauled or ditched completely. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028.md?page=2)