# NFL question involving video review, penalties, and the Detroit Lions **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 25, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028 "2012-11-25T00:59:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/41 "2012-11-26T19:05:19Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Yeah, the rule is beyond moronic. In the past, when coaches challenged plays that couldn’t be reviewed, the refs told them so and play continued. There is absolutely no reason why they shouldn’t do the same thing in this situation. E-fuckin’-xactly. It doesn’t need to slow the game down. The side/line judge picks up the flag and at next stoppage returns it with an explanation of why it is not reviewable. How about charging the offending team with a time out (15 yd unsportsmanlike if out of time outs) or 5 yd delay of game. The officials still review if rule-mandated but not if coach-requested. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/42 "2012-11-26T19:15:56Z")
I don’t even see the need for a penalty. Tell the refs to ignore the flag and play on. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/43 "2012-11-26T20:29:43Z")
So I thought I remembered something from the last season or two, or was there a scoring play where there was a potentially reviewable and possibly missed call, but the defensive coach was out of challenges, and the automatic review only looked at a specific set of issues, not the potentially missed one? (I don’t remember the exact missed call, but it was something like the auto review only confirmed whether the ball was possessed in the end zone, but wouldn’t go back and see whether for instance the QB had crossed the line of scrimmage before throwing). I remember announcers were saying that the defensive coach should have saved a challenge, implying he could have challenged that missed call. Am I crazy, was this in a previous version of the auto-review rules, or is this a giant Catch-22 that potentially prevents some calls from being reviewed? ---
**Author:** ![Uncle\_Jocko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uncle_jocko/32/2932_2.png) [@Uncle\_Jocko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncle_Jocko)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/44 "2012-11-26T23:32:24Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > No kidding. That’s why my post was critical of the rule, not the refs. What part of my post confused you? The part where you said, “There is absolutely no reason why they shouldn’t do the same thing in this situation.” I took that to mean that you thought the refs shouldn’t have applied the rule last Thursday, not that you thought the penalty rule itself was dumb. > [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > I don’t even see the need for a penalty. Tell the refs to ignore the flag and play on. But I can see I misread your opinion originally, so forgive me for that. We completely agree here. I don’t see why throwing a challenge flag on an unchallengeable play is a penalty at all. In fact, when it happened and the announcers said Schwartz had thrown the challenge flag, my son mentioned, “That’s a penalty.” I laughed, because I thought he was kidding. I had no idea the NFL had decided to make that a penalty now. It’s ridiculous. What are they trying to prevent, anyway? Showboating by the coaches? Who cares? ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/45 "2012-11-27T00:38:23Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > How about charging the offending team with a time out (15 yd unsportsmanlike if out of time outs) or 5 yd delay of game. The officials still review if rule-mandated but not if coach-requested. Supposedly, this is exactly the rule change under consideration. If the “sources” are to be believed though, it will _only_ apply to a coach and the challenge flag. Delay of game penalties committed by a player will still be subject to the “no review” rule to avoid unofficial challenge time. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/46 "2012-11-27T00:46:59Z")
> [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](#): > > OP here again with his limited knowledge of NFL rules and NFL culture. I have to ask: why is it “unsportsmanlike rules-lawyering” to do something that will \*\*allow \*\*time to review a call? Seems to me that if there is “unsportsmanlike rules-lawyering” in your scenario, it’s on the part of the offense in trying to prevent officials from getting the call right. (Again, maybe my mistake is to assume that the goal is to get the calls right.) The review rules have been evolving. I don’t think this particular case was given enough forethought since there’s no benefit to throwing the challenge the flag and it would be allowed in very similar circumstances. I think the rule change should be to take away the timeout for unneccesary use of the challenge flag, or do nothing at all in this circumstance. I don’t see how throwing the challenge flag when a review is already mandatory has any effect on the game. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/47 "2012-11-27T01:44:18Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > … or do nothing at all in this circumstance. I don’t see how throwing the challenge flag when a review is already mandatory has any effect on the game. Indeed. The right way to deal with this is to hand the challenge flag back to the coach who threw it, call him an ignoramus, and proceed with the mandatory review. The “You asked us to do what we were already going to do, therefore we won’t do it” approach comes across like something cobbled up by petulant 4th-graders. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/48 "2012-11-27T04:14:18Z")
There’s also a point not being discussed. If the offense wants the booth review they can take up to 39 seconds and snap the ball with 1 sec on the playclock. The defense wanting a review has only until the offense snaps the ball and of course the offense is trying to snap the ball as quickly as possible. Seems a bit inequitable. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/49 "2012-11-27T05:19:24Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > There’s also a point not being discussed. If the offense wants the booth review they can take up to 39 seconds and snap the ball with 1 sec on the playclock. The defense wanting a review has only until the offense snaps the ball and of course the offense is trying to snap the ball as quickly as possible. Seems a bit inequitable. That might be relevant during the final two minutes of a half, but I’m having trouble imagining a scenario where the offense would want a scoring play to be reviewed. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/50 "2012-11-27T18:47:50Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > That might be relevant during the final two minutes of a half, but I’m having trouble imagining a scenario where the offense would want a scoring play to be reviewed. Plus even when hurrying as fast as you can it’s time-consuming to run out and kick an extra point. > [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > With all due respect, and I’m not being snarky, but how do you know this? It was reported during the endless discussion of this. I probably heard it from Mike Perreira, but can’t say for sure. > [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](#): > > Or am I completely missing your point? I believe so, yes. The point is that you shouldn’t ever benefit from intentionally committing a penalty. This is a complaint many people have about basketball, and which the NFL tries to avoid at all costs. And no, hurrying to snap the ball to prevent a review isn’t unsportsmanlike, full stop. Committing a penalty to intentionally slow the game down is unsportsmanlike. If you’re doing this illegal delay tactic to try and force a booth review, that’s unsportsmanlike rules-lawyering. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/51 "2012-11-27T19:22:26Z")
You have three rules here that, taken in isolation, make perfect sense: 1. Automatic replay of scores. They’re too important, and automatic review eliminates rushing out onto the field to kick the extra point. 2. Penalty for spurious challenge. Coaches were wasting time, throwing challenge flags when not applicable, to cop extra time-outs. The games take long enough as it is. 3. No review after a penalty, to avoid intentional penalties to gain more time to decide whether to challenge. Each makes sense. But put all three together, and you get “We won’t do it because we were going to do it anyway,” which is absurd. “Make me!” “I know you are, but what am I?” No doubt change is coming, so we can move on to the next unforeseen consequence. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/52 "2012-11-27T20:45:17Z")
From today’s (11/27/12) \*Tuesday Morning Quarterback \*blog > [@](#): > > That an unneeded challenge negates a review seems a silly rule, and should be changed, pronto – 15 yards is ample punishment for this foul. Meanwhile, reader Justin Evilsizor of Philadelphia notes, “It may not be long until some quick-witted coach deliberately throws a challenge flag on his own team’s likely-to-be-overturned touchdown, in order to negate a review.” Ten bucks says Belichick is first to notice this rules quirk. [Link](http://espn.go.com/espn/playbook/story/_/id/8680122/ncaa-celebrate-notre-dame-top-athletic-academic-rankings) ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/53 "2012-11-27T20:53:37Z")
On automatically-reviewed plays, the offense can rush the next snap to beat the review process, but for other plays, the opposing coach can stop play with the red flag. The red flag should just be one more way to call a time out. ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/54 "2012-11-28T01:00:02Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > And no, hurrying to snap the ball to prevent a review isn’t unsportsmanlike, full stop. Committing a penalty to intentionally slow the game down is unsportsmanlike. If you’re doing this illegal delay tactic to try and force a booth review, that’s unsportsmanlike rules-lawyering. Interesting. I’m sure you have good reasons for seeing things this way, but it makes no sense to me at all. As I said before, it would seem to me that things would be set up so that the chances of getting the right call are maximized–so anything that interferes with that goal would be ethically questionable. Thanks for the clarification, though. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/55 "2012-11-28T03:56:25Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > On automatically-reviewed plays, the offense can rush the next snap to beat the review process, but for other plays, the opposing coach can stop play with the red flag. The red flag should just be one more way to call a time out. No, they can’t. The automatic review takes over and they are prevented from snapping the ball until the review is complete. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/56 "2012-11-28T05:16:56Z")
> [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](#): > > Interesting. I’m sure you have good reasons for seeing things this way, but it makes no sense to me at all. As I said before, it would seem to me that things would be set up so that the chances of getting the right call are maximized–so anything that interferes with that goal would be ethically questionable. Thanks for the clarification, though. Like **Zakalwe** says, the hurry-up offense doesn’t affect plays subject to automatic review. After a turnover or a score, the on-field officials aren’t supposed to allow the next snap until they get the go-ahead from the replay official. The offense might _want to_ go fast, but they’re not allowed to. In normal play, there plenty of perfectly sportsmanlike reasons to run a hurry-up offense. Maybe you get a favorable personnel matchup and don’t want to let the defense substitute, you’re down two scores and short on time, or maybe you just feel your team gets into a better rhythm that way. Maybe the defense seems confused and you don’t want them to have time to get it together. Maybe they’re trying to sub guys when you didn’t and you can catch them with 12 men on the field. Note that the hurry-up can’t prevent the defense from throwing a challenge flag or calling a timeout- it just shortens the amount of time they have to make the decision (it does the same thing for the defensive playcalling). ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/57 "2012-11-28T06:07:47Z")
> [@](#): > > That an unneeded challenge negates a review seems a silly rule, and should be changed, pronto – 15 yards is ample punishment for this foul. Meanwhile, reader Justin Evilsizor of Philadelphia notes, “It may not be long until some quick-witted coach deliberately throws a challenge flag on his own team’s likely-to-be-overturned touchdown, in order to negate a review.” Ten bucks says Belichick is first to notice this rules quirk. Wait. Would it really play out that way? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/58 "2012-11-28T06:11:26Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > That might be relevant during the final two minutes of a half, but I’m having trouble imagining a scenario where the offense would want a scoring play to be reviewed. When did I limit the scenerio to only scoring plays? ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/59 "2012-11-28T14:23:06Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Wait. Would it really play out that way? Nope. From the [2012 NFL rulebook](http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/2012%20-%20Rule%20Book.pdf) (warning: large pdf): > [@NFL](#): > > He must initiate a review before the next legal snap and cannot initiate a review of any ruling **against a team that commits a foul that delays the next step**. (Rule 15, Section 9, Replay Official’s Request for Review. Bolding mine) The rule only applies to teams that might benefit from the replay - it’s hard to argue that “touchdown New England” is a ruling against the Patriots. Belichick can throw the flag, but it’ll cost him 15 yards and the play will still be reviewed. I imagine Belichick knows this, but Easterbrook should have looked it up. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028/60 "2012-11-28T15:15:04Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > … it’s hard to argue that “touchdown New England” is a ruling against the Patriots. But by no means impossible. As noted upthread, the Patriots conceivably could have preferred to be allowed to run more time off the clock. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-involving-video-review-penalties-and-the-detroit-lions/642028.md?page=4)