# NFL Question - Personal Fouls **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [December 13, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055 "2010-12-13T23:59:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![GreedySmurf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a698b9/32.png) [@GreedySmurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreedySmurf)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/1 "2010-12-13T23:59:44Z")
So I was watching a bit of the Phillie’s V Cowboys game on my lunch break yesterday. And I’m after opinons from followers of the sport on an issue that came up. One of the Dallas players gave up a personal foul after what I thought was a great sack of the Quarterback\*. Upon replay, it looked like quite a good tackle to me, but I see that there was what I personally would call some incidental contact between the attacking players helmet and the helmet of the QB. And I understand the foul call was for that helmet contact. I understand the need for a rule of some sort to stop players spearing in and leading with the helmet, but to me there was nothing dangerous about the contact made, and was as far as I could see it was not intentional, and just happened in the course of the tackle being made. The Cowboys player certainly didn’t lead with the helmet. So I suppose I’m curious about where the line is drawn in ‘helmet contact’, is any contact worth a foul? How do the ref’s decide who is to blame if it’s not clear cut? Or is this one of the rules that only applies to tackling the QB? Is it just me, I thought awarding a foul for what happened to be a pretty soft penalty in what is pitched as a rough tough sport. - Is that an oxymoron? Can anyone else but the Quarterback be sacked? ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/2 "2010-12-14T00:15:37Z")
> [@GreedySmurf](#): > > So I was watching a bit of the Phillie’s V Cowboys game on my lunch break yesterday. > > And I’m after opinons from followers of the sport on an issue that came up. > > One of the Dallas players gave up a personal foul after what I thought was a great sack of the Quarterback\*. Upon replay, it looked like quite a good tackle to me, but I see that there was what I personally would call some incidental contact between the attacking players helmet and the helmet of the QB. And I understand the foul call was for that helmet contact. > > I understand the need for a rule of some sort to stop players spearing in and leading with the helmet, but to me there was nothing dangerous about the contact made, and was as far as I could see it was not intentional, and just happened in the course of the tackle being made. The Cowboys player certainly didn’t lead with the helmet. > > So I suppose I’m curious about where the line is drawn in ‘helmet contact’, is any contact worth a foul? > How do the ref’s decide who is to blame if it’s not clear cut? > Or is this one of the rules that only applies to tackling the QB? > > Is it just me, I thought awarding a foul for what happened to be a pretty soft penalty in what is pitched as a rough tough sport. > > - Is that an oxymoron? Can anyone else but the Quarterback be sacked? I’m sorry, you must be mistaken. There is no tackling of anyone in American Football whatsoever, especially not anyone who might be called a “quarterback.” You must have been watching a different sport. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/3 "2010-12-14T00:18:43Z")
> [@GreedySmurf](#): > > So I was watching a bit of the **Phillie’s** V Cowboys game on my lunch break yesterday. :eek: sorry ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/4 "2010-12-14T00:23:11Z")
> [@markdash](#): > > I’m sorry, you must be mistaken. There is no tackling of anyone in American Football whatsoever, especially not anyone who might be called a “quarterback.” You must have been watching a different sport. :rolleyes: > [@GreedySmurf](#): > > So I suppose I’m curious about where the line is drawn in ‘helmet contact’, is any contact worth a foul? > How do the ref’s decide who is to blame if it’s not clear cut? > Or is this one of the rules that only applies to tackling the QB? Personal fouls are pretty subjective, but the league has given out pretty clear marching orders to the refs that they should err on the side of caution when it comes to the quarterbacks. I didn’t see the play, but don’t doubt that you didn’t see anything egregious with it. There have been a rash of concussions this season, so giving a strong disincentive to strike helmet to helmet is a good thing (to an extent). ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/5 "2010-12-14T00:27:09Z")
**Munch** nailed it. PS–that team with the green helmets? They are called the Eagles. Not the “Phillies”. If you’d posted that during the Cold War, you’ve have outted yourself as a Commie spy, and probably been put to death. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/6 "2010-12-14T00:33:51Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Personal fouls are pretty subjective, but the league has given out pretty clear marching orders to the refs that they should err on the side of caution when it comes to the quarterbacks. I didn’t see the play, but don’t doubt that you didn’t see anything egregious with it. There have been a rash of concussions this season, so giving a strong disincentive to strike helmet to helmet is a good thing (to an extent). I saw the play. It was a pretty straightforward call. The Cowboy tackled Vick as he was throwing and the defender’s facemask made first contact with Vick’s helmet in the process of wrapping him up. It wasn’t in any way flagrant and since the rusher was being blocked it was probably difficult to avoid. He didn’t spear him with the crown of the helmet or launch into him. That said it was a textbook description of what the league has said is off limits. Bad break for the defense but a easy call for the refs. Compounding matters was that a second pass rusher hit Vick in the head after the initial contact too. That rusher actually was aiming low at his center of mass which would have been ideal I suspect but the impact of the first hit taking Vick to the ground brought him down into the path of the hit. I think based on the new rules either hit would have justified a flag. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/7 "2010-12-14T00:47:07Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > I didn’t see the play, but don’t doubt that you didn’t see anything egregious with it. I will add, after seeing Omni’s post, that a lot of these plays \*look \*pretty innocuous but are actually extremely energetic and dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![sevenwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@sevenwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sevenwood)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/8 "2010-12-14T00:56:54Z")
I’m an Eagles fan, and I thought the contact was incidental. However, this year the refs have been given clear direction - if there’s helmet-to-helmet contact it’s a personal foul. It was a good call given the rules. (I don’t happen to like this particular rule, but the NFL never asks for my opinion before they make the rules.) ---
**Author:** ![GreedySmurf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a698b9/32.png) [@GreedySmurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreedySmurf)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/9 "2010-12-14T02:18:45Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > **Munch** nailed it. > PS–that team with the green helmets? They are called the Eagles. Not the “Phillies”. If you’d posted that during the Cold War, you’ve have outted yourself as a Commie spy, and probably been put to death. Would my excuse that I’m an Australian, and enjoy watching an occasional game but am far from a student of the game have prevented a bullet in the back of my head? 😃 So you never ever refer to any of your NFL teams by their location name? Odd. I often refer to NRL teams by their location, once you’ve established a conversation is about football of course. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/10 "2010-12-14T03:23:31Z")
> [@GreedySmurf](#): > > So you never ever refer to any of your NFL teams by their location name? Odd. I often refer to NRL teams by their location, once you’ve established a conversation is about football of course. We do, sometimes, though it’s more likely someone would refer to the “Eagles-Cowboys” game than the “Philadelphia-Dallas” game. And, you’d almost never hear someone refer to a team by pluralizing the city name (or a shortened version of that name). Some teams do have unofficial nicknames which are sometimes used, but those are almost always based on the official nickname (Bucs for Buccaneers, G-Men for Giants, Pack for Packers, etc.) In this particular case, of course, it was more glaring because Phillies _is_ the official nickname of Philadelphia’s baseball team. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/11 "2010-12-14T03:40:08Z")
You’d never say say “Philadelphia-Dallas”. Too damn many syllables in “Philadelphia”. ---
**Author:** ![GreedySmurf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a698b9/32.png) [@GreedySmurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreedySmurf)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/12 "2010-12-14T03:55:54Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > In this particular case, of course, it was more glaring because Phillies _is_ the official nickname of Philadelphia’s baseball team. Oh. There’s your problem 😛 I don’t follow baseball at all, and am only passingly familiar with the more high profile team names. As an aside to my original point, I got to see some of the Ravens v Texans (I had to look them up - didn’t the Houston team used to be the Oilers?) game over lunch today. And with the Ravens on a kick return (which they scored from incidentally) one of the tackle attempts made by a Texans player on the Ravens ball carrier quite clearly had quite strong helmet to helmet contact. Yet no foul was called. Yes I understand that having scored a TD the Ravens would have declined the penalty, but that shouldn’t have stopped the flag being thrown should it? Was this probably just a case of the ref’s missing the contact, or is it different based on who was being tackled? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/13 "2010-12-14T04:31:08Z")
> [@GreedySmurf](#): > > (I had to look them up - didn’t the Houston team used to be the Oilers?) Different franchise, but yes. The Houston Oilers moved to Tennessee in 1997 (they played in Memphis for one year, before the permanent move to Nashville), and changed their nickname to the Titans in 1999. Houston was then awarded an expansion team, the Texans, which began play in 2002. A number of NFL franchises have changed cities over the years (I don’t know how often that happens in Australian football, if ever). Usually, they keep the nickname in the new city, but, in a few cases, the team has also changed nicknames upon the move. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/14 "2010-12-14T04:35:55Z")
> [@GreedySmurf](#): > > And with the Ravens on a kick return (which they scored from incidentally) one of the tackle attempts made by a Texans player on the Ravens ball carrier quite clearly had quite strong helmet to helmet contact. Yet no foul was called. > > Yes I understand that having scored a TD the Ravens would have declined the penalty, but that shouldn’t have stopped the flag being thrown should it? Was this probably just a case of the ref’s missing the contact, or is it different based on who was being tackled? I’m only sort-of watching the game; I saw the kick return, but missed the helmet-to-helmet hit. If it were such a hit, it should have drawn a flag (it’s not just quarterbacks who are protected in that way). Odds are that the officials just missed it. I’ve seen a few cases over the past few years where a player isn’t called for a penalty for such a hit, but, a day or two later, when the NFL reviews the game films, they still get a fine. And, incidentally, if there had been such a penalty on the Texans on that play, the Ravens would still have accepted it, because it would have been enforced on the following kickoff. Unnecessary roughness and unsportsmanlike conduct penalties against the defense are usually enforced after the play. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/15 "2010-12-14T04:41:55Z")
> [@GreedySmurf](#): > > - Is that an oxymoron? Can anyone else but the Quarterback be sacked? Nope. A “sack” only occurs when the quarterback is tackled behind the line of scrimmage, while attempting to make a pass. If the quarterback is clearly attempting a running play from the start, or tackled after he crosses the line of scrimmage, it’s not a sack. And, if any other player is tackled while carrying the ball, it’s just a tackle, not a sack. ---
**Author:** ![GreedySmurf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a698b9/32.png) [@GreedySmurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreedySmurf)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/16 "2010-12-14T05:06:50Z")
Thanks Kenobi. I didn’t realise the penalty could still be accepted and applied after the kick off! As far as moving teams between towns it’s a vanishingly small chance of occuring in the two major Australian football codes (NRL & ARL). Primarily because the ownership structure of most clubs is very different from the NFL Franchise system. It’s rare to have an NRL club be privately owned, most (but not all) of them are owned by an associated Leagues Club, which are tied to a particular location. Offhand I can only recall one outright move for a club (which is in the AFL) and maybe 3-4 moves which were amalgamations with another club in the new location. (both AFL & NRL) ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/17 "2010-12-14T05:07:39Z")
> [@GreedySmurf](#): > > Would my excuse that I’m an Australian, and enjoy watching an occasional game but am far from a student of the game have prevented a bullet in the back of my head? 😃 Well, maybe. Australians are generally cool, and y’all did shoot down the Red Baron, so ya got that working for ya. Then again, this is Philadelphia we’re talking about. They booed Santa Claus, so all bets are off… ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/18 "2010-12-14T05:22:59Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > I’m only sort-of watching the game; I saw the kick return, but missed the helmet-to-helmet hit. If it were such a hit, it should have drawn a flag (it’s not just quarterbacks who are protected in that way). Odds are that the officials just missed it. I’ve seen a few cases over the past few years where a player isn’t called for a penalty for such a hit, but, a day or two later, when the NFL reviews the game films, they still get a fine. Gotta correct you here. This is wrong. Helmet-to-helmet hits are legal in most cases. They are legal on all ball carriers including quarterbacks who have tucked the ball and become runners. They are also legal on all blocks. The only time helmet-to-helmet hits are verboten is on the much discussed passer and on defenseless receivers. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/19 "2010-12-14T05:26:00Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Nope. A “sack” only occurs when the quarterback is tackled behind the line of scrimmage, while attempting to make a pass. If the quarterback is clearly attempting a running play from the start, or tackled after he crosses the line of scrimmage, it’s not a sack. And, if any other player is tackled while carrying the ball, it’s just a tackle, not a sack. Technically, the official statistician can record a sack against any player that he thinks was going to attempt a pass, such as in a wildcat-type formation. (I admit you could argue that whatever player attempts a pass is playing the QB spot on that play, though.) > [@GreedySmurf](#): > > … > I didn’t realise the penalty could still be accepted and applied after the kick off!.. Personal fouls are a special case. Those penalties are always assessed, either _instead of_ the resulting play, _tacked on_ to the resulting play, or assessed on the following kickoff. ---
**Author:** ![sevenwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@sevenwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sevenwood)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055/20 "2010-12-14T13:19:35Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Gotta correct you here. This is wrong. Helmet-to-helmet hits are legal in most cases. They are legal on all ball carriers including quarterbacks who have tucked the ball and become runners. They are also legal on all blocks. > > The only time helmet-to-helmet hits are verboten is on the much discussed passer and on defenseless receivers. Not this year, sir. Helmet-to-helmet hits draw penalties, every time. The NFL is trying (and apparently failing) to reduce the number of concussions suffered by their players. I believe that the rule itself didn’t change - just the NFL’s interpretation/enforcing of it. [Here’s a copy of Roger Godell’s memo](http://newyork.sbnation.com/2010/10/21/1766659/roger-goodell-sends-memo-to-teams-about-about-increased-discipline-for-illegal-hits) that started it all. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nfl-question-personal-fouls/564055.md?page=2)